Ambiguous Name: Bonus Boss

Bosses that become unavailable later in the game are definitely Permanently Missable Content.

X5 The main reason I'm bringing this up is because I don't think "Bonus Boss" OR "Optional Boss" should become a Supertrope. I think there is a fundamental distinction between a Superboss and a Sidequest Boss that makes the latter worthy of a trope of its own. My main suggestion is the addition of Sidequest Boss as another type of Optional Boss distinct from the Superboss, rather than the vague "any boss that is optional, including Superbosses themselves" (as again, a Superboss would apply both to its own Superboss example page AND a generic 'Bonus/Optional Boss' supertrope)

So, I think that there is NO need for an 'Optional Boss' supertrope, but I do think there should be an Index (either for Optional Bosses, or for Optional Content of games as a whole, where both Superboss and Sidequest Boss would be listed in)

TL;DR on my suggestion:

1) Rename Bonus Boss into something more appropriate, keep the trope's meaning and most examples as-is.

2) Create another trope called Sidequest Boss, this lists out optional bosses that are parts of sidequest or side content that isn't strictly endgame. This would not be a Superboss to Bonus Boss, but more akin to a Sister Trope.

3) Move examples from Bonus Boss that aren't fitting to that to this new trope.

4) Create a new Index for Optional Bosses (which would have other tropes like Route Boss or Skippable Boss) or for optional content in videogames in general.

Edited by Makir on Sep 21st 2021 at 12:27:32 PM

I agree that Sidequest Boss and Secret Boss are two distinct things, but I don't see why that should entail not having a supertrope. The point of the supertrope is to catch optional bosses that don't fit into any of the subcategories, like Soul Master in Hollow Knight. Optional, but not secret, not part of a sidequest, not a superboss, not a true final boss, not permanently missable.

(Soul Master is probably a Skippable Boss. He's not mandatory to complete the game, but the game definitely expects you to fight him as part of the "standard" progression.)

Skippable Boss is a boss that is (a) required to encounter; (b) once encountered, the fight can be exited without resolving it. False Knight, for example. Soul Master fits neither criterion.

Yes, we really need the supertrope + subtropes here. There are a lot of specific types of optional bosses out there and then there are those that don’t fit any pattern. Like FFXII’s random chance hunt bosses, like 5% chance to spawn when entering the zone. Or Lightning Returns extinction bosses, kill all of a race of monsters and the boss version appears. Or bonus bosses encountered early in a story and they are basically impossible to beat, you gotta return later like in Persona 5 Strikers.

Do Roaming Enemy and Open-Ended Boss Battle cover that?

Don't expect me to add much, I'm not much of a gamer and all the terms being thrown around is making my headspin, but it's clear to me that we need to really get consensus on what each trope name means. If we already have it, laying out the term list would be helpful for lurkers like myself who're getting lost in the jargon.

Edit:

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 22nd 2021 at 12:49:38 PM

Forgive me for plagiarizing this:

Don't expect me to add much, I'm not much of a gamer and all the terms being thrown around is making my headspin, but it's clear to me that we need to really get consensus on what each trope name means. If we already have it, laying out the term list would be helpful for lurkers like myself who're getting lost in the jargon.

Should DLC bosses be classified as Bonus Bosses if they’re required to clear the DLC? I see this primarily from the Dark Souls Trilogy and Bloodborne.

I'd think so. Unless the DLC introduces and entire new main story segment.

Edited by Amonimus on Sep 24th 2021 at 11:42:40 AM

DLC = Downloadable Content. Essentially extra stuff that isn't available in the initial game but is created later and then downloaded into the game. It can range from simple cosmetics to entire new levels/quests.

Is there anything else I can explain so the non-gamers can understand this thread better? Sorry for not being considerate of you- I assumed everyone participating would be a gamer, but I guess that's Fan Myopia.

I just want to make sure everyone is using the same definitions. I feel like people keep throwing definitions back and forth without actually coming to any consensus over what's being defined.

I think the main problem with the discussion is that it relies on the arrangement of subtropes, some of which aren't made yet (point #2 of the original post), we're basically coming up with every type of non-mandatory Boss Battle at this point. Which is why I think an optimal course of action is expanding and sorting Sandbox.Bonus Boss Wick Check and considering if Trope Launch Pad is needed for missing boss categories, before we try to redefine the supetropes (point #1 of the original post).

For my opinion, I do not really see any meaningful difference between Sidequest Boss and Secret Boss- at least, not different enough to warrant a different page for each- so I think they can be covered in the same trope.

True Final Boss is distinct from Super Boss in that a TFB is beaten to unlock the Golden Ending or True Ending of a game, whatever that is, whereas a Super Boss can unlock an ending, but not the Golden/True one. This lets Sans count because beating him unlocks an ending, but not the Golden Ending that you are encouraged to get.

Is that clear enough, or should I elaborate on certain terms?

Edited by MasterN on Sep 24th 2021 at 2:43:57 AM

Considered just as terms — regardless for now of whether they are meaningful tropes — "secret boss" and "sidequest boss" are completely different and orthogonal. (That is, a boss can belong to both categories, like Grimm in Hollow Knight, but that is just because he happens to belong to two separate categories, not because his membership of one has any bearing on the other.)

(Sorry to keep using Hollow Knight for examples; it's just often the first that comes to mind for me, both because I know the game very well and because it has so many bosses that it's easy to think of examples for just about any category.)

"Secret boss" implies that the boss is located in a hidden area or off the main path, and that following the main path doesn't tell you about its existence — you have to go out of your way to find it.

"Sidequest boss" implies a boss that is part of an optional quest or mission — the player is told of a specific objective they can fulfil, which isn't required for completion. Learning about the sidequest could be in a hidden area, but it could also be in a main area and not hidden/secret at all. Conversely, a boss can be secret but not a sidequest boss if it's just there in a hidden area and there is no mission objective involved, like Brooding Mawlek.

Edited by Vilui on Sep 25th 2021 at 5:57:23 PM

I feel like we need to rename Bonus Boss before we can talk about more optional boss tropes in the TLP, even just to prevent the inevitable "What's the difference between this and Bonus Boss?" that would happen.

We pretty much reached a consensus that it needs a rename, is that enough for a Crowner?

I'm personally in favor of renaming the current Bonus Boss to Superboss, given that this term is used pretty much nearly everywhere outside TV Tropes. In an essence, one may consider it a pre-established videogaming term (similarly to how Final Death was renamed Permadeath, given that it was also a term used nearly everywhere outside TV Tropes).

I'm opposed to Superboss mainly due to the lack of a camelword. I don't have stats on hand, but I'm fairly certain that single word tropes tend to have less wicks due to the simple fact that they're more obtuse to add (some keyboards don't even have the {} for instance)

My suggestion is then to either modify it to Super Boss, or use my previously mentioned idea (Brutal Bonus Boss)

I'm now interested in those stats, because both those statements "more obtuse to add" and "some keyboards don't even have curly brackets" are rather odd and I can't imagine either being true. And at either case, it's more of an issue of how the users want to follow the formatting and don't think fit into this TRS, by this logic we should replace all single-word tropes with CamelCase.

I think a crowner would be incoming, so what are our mentioned options for Bonus Boss page so far? (discuss the options, vote later)

1. Redirect / Rename Bonus Boss -> Optional Boss, redefine Optional Boss as "non-mandatory bosses" supertrope, move all examples to Optional Boss, then split examples between new subtropes.

2. Rename Bonus Boss -> Superboss and keep current defenition, redefine Optional Boss as "non-mandatory bosses" supertrope and move appropriate examples, then split examples between new subtropes.

3. Redefine and keep Bonus Boss as "non-mandatory bosses" supertrope, keep Optional Boss as an index, temporarily comment out unfitting examples, then split examples between new subtropes.

Edited by Amonimus on Sep 27th 2021 at 10:23:25 PM

Just to point out that "rename Bonus Boss to Superboss" shouldn't be mutually exclusive with "turn Optional Boss into a supertrope and move misused Bonus Boss examples there".

Also, the third example appears to propose the Launch Displacement, since the current definition of Bonus Boss is specifically for examples of "harder than Final Boss/True Final Boss".

The problem with 'Superboss' vs Bonus boss is that Bonus Bosses dont have to be Super Bosses IMO. IMO Bonus Bosses are Post game / End game / New Game Plus exclusive Optional Bosses that are harder than the Final Boss and meant to be completed AFTER the final boss.

A Super Boss is the ultimate super omega hard difficult boss that beating it you have completed the game, period. Generally a game only has 1 Super Boss and that's it. Other bonus bosses in the game pale in comparison to that one Super Boss, all the post game contend and grinding leads to fighting the ultimate Super Boss.

IE like lets break down Final Fantasy X HD

• Lord Ochu: Limited Window Optional Boss early in game if you dont kill it on your way through the area, someone else kills it before you return.
• Belgemine's Aeons: A series of Optional Boss fights that you can face on your first time through various areas. Which can be done again later in a temple if you missed any so not technically a Limited Window Optional Boss.
• Yojimbo: Sidequest Boss, you find the entrance to an optional dungeon and are directed to explore it and get some character development for Lulu.
• Ultima Weapon and Omega Weapon: Part of a Bonus Dungeon that you can only find inputting the coordinates in the airship. The area's random encounters are harder than the final boss let alone the Bonus Bosses.
• Monster Arena: series of 100 or so unlockable Bonus Bosses, all harder than the final boss, culminating in Nemesis who is THE Super Boss of the original game.
• Dark Aeons: added in the rerelease its a series of various Bonus Bosses that are tuned to be extremely hard culminating with Penance, who is considered THE hardest Super Boss of the entire franchise due to the amount of things you need to do to just to even survive a single turn in the fight.

Yes... FFX has over 100 Bonus Bosses, but it only has 1-2 Super Bosses depending on the version you are playing.

EDIT: And really we should Keep Bonus Boss and Bonus Dungeon lined up with each other.

Edited by Memers on Sep 26th 2021 at 6:14:12 AM

Both ARE true. Newbie tropers may not know that single word tropes require those symbols around the phrase even if they do have it on their keyboard. As for the keyboard part itself... they keyboard I'm writing this on doesn't have them, the only way I could input them is through a keypad combination or copy-pasting the symbols from somewhere else, which made single-word tropes especially annoying to add.

As for the crowner:

4) Rename Bonus Boss + Create Sidequest Boss Sister Trope

I still fundamentally disagree with renaming it Superboss specifically.

Edited by Makir on Sep 26th 2021 at 3:18:21 PM

*laughs in Kingdom Hearts games with over a dozen Superbosses*

Also, saying only 1-2 Superbosses can exist just unnecessarily makes the definition murkier. How do you differentiate between them if all the extra bosses are harder than the Final Boss?

I think renaming Bonus Boss to Optional Boss and using it as a supertrope for hidden bosses, sidequest bosses, etc makes the most sense

Sorry if this is off topic but... Makir, what fucking keyboard are you using?