Needs Help: Queer Media

This thread has a consensus to create an index for transgender-themed works.

Currently we have Queer Media, which lumps all LGBTQ+-themed works together. A year ago there was a TRS about whether the article is too loose with "LGBTQ+-themed works".

Opening this thread so that we can consider a split of the index to satisfy the decision in the other thread.

Well, my first question, asked and answered, is / was of "sufficient work quantity to support a new index?"

Given we have sub-indexes, the answer is yes.

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Then there's "difference in substance, beyond Trans Tribulations?" Possibly. I'm not well informed there.

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Queer as Tropes should get split before this does, I think? Since, from a trope perspective, tropes spawn genres, so new trope category = new genre?

Edited by Malady on Jul 8th 2021 at 6:08:18 AM

Would make sense in our onion for Queer Media to be the top-level super-index, containing both (works with broad and/or label-defying queer focus) and the various sub-indices like Trans Media, Bi Media, etc

Whoops. Edited while new post. ^^ - Queer as Tropes talk if you missed.

To avoid bloat, maybe works should only go on those specific sub-indices if they focus on one identity more strongly than the other. Like, Steven Universe is obviously a queer show, but we could also list it under Lesbian Media (or Sapphic Media, whatever we decide) because most of the queer focus comes from an exploration of same-gender relationships between characters coded as women. But it may not need to go on Bisexual Media because there are bi characters but that specific sexuality isn't explored as heavily? If that makes sense.

We could also keep Queer Media for shows featuring identities that don't have pages yet. I saw people ask whether we should include certain cultural identities under Transgender, and while some can fit there, some may not be a perfect 1:1 fit and may better fit listed under our general index. It can also cover those characters who have an Ambiguous Gender Identity and can't be called decisively trans.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 8th 2021 at 12:38:59 PM

That sounds like a good idea!

Agreed. to that.

No problem here!

Some works focus on characters with different identities and I think it would be better to have those listed on Queer Media rather than on all sub indexes.

My concern is that the index seems to attract shoehorning for works that have some gay representation or a LGBT Fanbase but are not about being gay. I think this index/indexes should be restricted to works that have Queer Romance, Coming-Out Story, or other lgbt-specific plots as the main premise or gay identity as the Central Theme, but this is widely ignored and I worry making more indexes will make this worse.

Particularly in the case of a trans index, where Ambiguous Gender Identity is a thing and there are AT Ts all the time with people edit warring about characters' pronouns.

I'm not totally against a split, but I'm worried it could cause problems.

Transgender Media would be for characters who are explicitly trans or nonbinary. No Ambiguous Gender Identity unless the ambiguity comes from their exact gender and they are otherwise treated as trans in-universe.

I agree we can restrict the index to works where the queer characters are prominent and queer themes are explored in at least a main character's subplot.

There is a potential for iffiness here when it comes to labeling characters so if their identity isn't made clear, I say just put them under Queer Media. Though I wouldn't be opposed for, say, a Sapphic Media index to encompass all kinds of F/F love (not counting the Yuri Genre which is a sub-index), and probably an equivalent for M/M love (same deal with Yaoi Genre).

Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 8th 2021 at 2:10:38 PM

What about Queer Romance? There's already quite a bit of overlap/redundancy between Queer Media and Queer Romance, with works on the latter also being listed on the former. Should that continue, or not? And if F/F and M/M indexes are made, how would those work with Queer Romance?

Edited by Twiddler on Jul 8th 2021 at 12:21:54 PM

Hmmm... I would say Queer Romance and the identity indices could overlap, but they're both subindices of Queer Media and thus don't need to go on that page as well.

I would suggest only add works where the LGBT subject is very central to the plot. A work having a confirmed LGBT character wouldn't be enough if they aren't the protagonist or a major supporting character.

Also, mostly due to Grandfather Clause and little else, I'm not a big fan of naming a lesbian-media index as "Sapphic Media". It just feels like a buzzword incapable of overriding the enduring familiarity we have with "lesbian".

I think that should be what the page is about, but honestly, I wouldn't count on people really obeying it since it's a subject many are passionate about. The only way I really see it happening is if the page was locked. Then again, the page already states that works need to make them a focus and people seem to respect it, so IDK really.

Otherwise, I guess a split can work, and I agree that we should use the word "lesbian" as better known and understood.

Edited by Piterpicher on Jul 8th 2021 at 5:56:53 PM

My mindset was that this would allow works focusing on relationships between women, and speaking as a bi woman, I can already see a shitshow if we categorize a work as specifically lesbian or bisexual if neither is specifically confirmed. If nothing else, when it comes to Lesbian Media and Sapphic Media, we could keep one as a redirect to the other.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 8th 2021 at 12:06:50 PM

- "if we categorize a work as specifically lesbian or bisexual if neither is specifically confirmed."

Why would we do that? Have we done that?

If we have, they should move up more generally to something more solid, Queer Romance, or possibly even Queer Media or general Romance?

Edited by Malady on Jul 8th 2021 at 9:39:35 AM

Agreed. If categorizing a work within two incides (in this case, Bisexual Media and Lesbian Media) is not a valid option, then Queer Romance would fit better. Also, how would we decide what would be a redirect to what? A fancy neologism redirecting to a well-established, recognizable term (which I would personally support)? Or the other way around (which I wouldn't)?

Queer Romance however requires a romance as a central aspect. I am not so sure that all the non-one sided examples would fit there. And of course, that page is a genre, not an index like this one.

It also does indexing, like the other Romance subgenre pages.

Right now I'm more concerned over the misuse of works being indexed there (though I have contributed to the problem in the past and am making up for it). The Other Wiki gets around this by just calling everything "LGBT-related media/dramas/series/etc" so I either propose a separate index dealing with that subject matter called LGBT Related Media or Queer Related Media or turning Queer Media into LGBT Related Media. I would like a separate index but I'll see how it shakes out.

I think the fundamental question is what makes something "queer media" and not "media with queer characters"?

The focus of the story. Which is why I agree with @naturalironist. A story where some of the characters are gay but it doesn't affect the plot shouldn't be lumped in with stories where being gay is the focal point.

We should ideally encourage descriptions of the media in question, so it's easier to tell what's a story with a focus on queer narratives. The current system somebody set up has a decent idea, but could look more professional and be less AO3-tag-ish.

My personal standard is that there should at least be a major character who is LGBT and has that as a relevant part of their story arc. They don't need to be the main character but it should at least be a recurring subplot.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 31st 2021 at 9:30:00 AM