Troping Let's Plays

This thread, I think, but I think moving them to all to WebVideo/ is a massive waste of time. Not all namespaces are strictly mediums; we're not moving LightNovel/ to Literature/ or VisualNovel/ to VideoGame/.

Both of those at least are about differences in form, whereas let's plays are just content.

Regardless, if there seems to be some people who believe that a lot of the Let's Play pages should be cut as not being tropable, maybe we should do that before worrying about the namespace issue, to save time.

This leads to the question: what is the standard for being a tropeable? Mine would be that there must be a narrative being constructed by someone, who is making deliberate conscious choices in its telling.

A narrative, or at the very least some creative intent and fictionalization.

I would say that fictionalization is the most important part. That means either constructing a story that exists independently of the game's own narrative or using the game as a medium for creativity. The specific example I can think of is Toby Turner making up original songs while playing Minecraft, although I'm sure there are other cases.

The important distinction is that merely reacting to the game (no matter how over-the-top) or playing the game in a distinct way (speedruns, points runs, self-imposed challenge runs, picking the evil path) is not enough.

Should we do a single-prop crowner to "abolish the LetsPlay/ namespace"?

I say we hold off for now. Having all the pages organized in the namespace will make the clean-up easier, and it might affect people's votes if there's only a handful of pages left afterwards.

...Given of things, there's likely alot of youtuber Lets Play pages that unjustifiably have work pages (ones that I'm familiar of are Dream, Technoblade, Sapnap, and GeorgeNotFound)

We should probably run through the namespace and weed out the ones that are objectively below our tropeability standards, and then decide what to do with the rest. We can even make a projects thread for that.

videogamedunkey is another. I'm not sure how much of his content is tropable.

The only LP channel I follow is Game Grumps and that's not even in the LP namespace. It helps that they not only craft some narratives around the games they play (Trauma Center and DDLC being good examples) but the page also includes the fans' GG Animated videos, which include more visual gags and such, or even put the audio in a new fictional context.

Not to mention, their commercials are always done in skit form, and their edits can also provide some tropeworthy stuff.

Dunkey definitely seems like an interesting case; his editing style's incredibly concise (he basically cuts things down to what most other Let's Play channels would put together in a "best of" video), and most of his more comedic videos seem to have at least one or two scripted jokes in there, on top of the occasional fully-scripted video.

That said, even with how much he trims the fat, the majority of the jokes seem to be as improvised as in a typical LP, and while he has a handful of purely non-serious videos (such as "Top 100 Games" and "History of Gaming"), to my knowledge they're outweighed by his serious reviews and video essays (which I assume aren't tropeworthy for similar reasons). I've been out of the loop on Game Grumps for years so I don't know how their edits compare to his, but in general Dunkey feels like much less of an open-and-shut case than the likes of Chuggaaconroy or OneyPlays.

I mean, I get why it gets put into question... But I don't see Hermitcraft as a Let's Play, to be honest. But I don't think it would qualify as Web Original or anything else. That brings up a bit of an issue.

But yeah, some Let's Play creators I do agree have unwarranted pages here. While others - like The Runaway Guys - are decent enough to stay.

Given that most Let's Play pages focuses on who makes them, maybe we should move the ones which are good to Creator pages or the like, and then retire the Let's Play namespace.

As a video game streamer, I would like to strongly emphasise that I am not as much of a motor-mouthed snarky pervert off-stream. My persona is a slight exaggeration (not to mention Doktor Dźwiedźrespekt, which is even more over-the-top), and looking at people like videogamedunkey I'm assuming the same is true about them.

Well, we shouldn’t be assuming things about real people’s personalities in any situation. And people act differently in different situations.

When you put a camera in front of someone, they act differently than they would without. When someone is with people, they are different than when they are alone. When someone is at work, they act differently than when they are at a club.

These are not tropable.

Even then, most YouTubers just exaggerate aspects of themselves that actually exist. They don't become entirely new people; they play up certain personality traits for the camera. That doesn't make them characters.

Okay, but what if you put in some sight gags into your video, like parody-themed intros, using a Gilligan Cut to skip from one segment to another for comedic effect ("I am not even attempting to take on the Bonus Boss!" cut to fighting the boss in question, for example) etc.?

Or, if you lampshade the obvious tropes used in the game, at least?

Are we really playing this game? "How much do I have to tart up my Let's Play before TV Tropes will stop being mean and let me have an article?"

Well, I suppose we have to figure out exactly where the line is drawn. I've watched quite a few myself and the vast majority are "person plays game, reacts to what happens in it". These are not tropable, period.

The main ways that people will try to embellish an LP include (feel free to add to the list if I forgot anything):

• Blatantly exaggerating their reactions: laughing like demon clowns, shrieking like a toddler on meth when anything surprising happens, etc. (looking at you, PewDiePie)
• Getting "in-character": dressing up, roleplaying as characters in the game, talking back to the game in-character, etc.
• Using editing techniques to alter the flow of the LP (besides simply cutting out flubs and boring bits) or otherwise play with the medium.
• Inventing original stories or narratives within the structure of the game. (Note that this is different than making a completely original story using the game as a medium, as in Freemans Mind.)
• Using the LP as a platform for developing original content (like Tobuscus improvising songs while playing Minecraft).
• "MST'ing" the game as they play - this implies some sort of forethought or scripting unless the LP'er is an extremely good improv comedian.

Anything else?

Edited by Fighteer on May 7th 2021 at 7:03:51 AM

I'd say it boils down to, are you watching because of their creative content, or because they are showing a game you enjoy? If they spent more than half their episodes on games that you'd never play because you hate their story, would you still enjoy watching them?

It's why a Let's Play of a fictional game is inherently tropable, even if they don't do anything other than "react" to it like they would a real game. Let's Play videos are generally like unofficial strategy guides; not inherently interesting from a storytelling point of view. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're the creative descendants of the unofficial guides of the 80's and 90's. Please don't make a bunch of articles for guides that are just telling you how to play a game with better strategy.

That's the thing though. Not all of them are like that. videogamedunkey isn't in any way meant to be a walkthrough, his content is meant for humor. I'm not saying he is tropable (I don't think most of his content is) but I think that saying that a Let's Play is basically a walkthrough misrepresents what a Let's Play is.

Most LPs are definitely not meant to be walkthroughs. If you watch a Game Grumps video to learn something about a game, I'm pretty sure you'll end up with less knowledge than you had before you watched the video.

Video walkthroughs do exist but they're usually not called "Let's Plays", they're still just called "walkthroughs" or "playthroughs", and any dialogue is just plainly explaining what to do, if that even. No characters, jokes or skits, or whatever.

Still doesn't mean LPs are tropable though. Even the aforementioned Game Grumps LP of DDLC isn't tropable, IMO. Making funny voices and pretending a character is a robot is not a narrative. Especially since said character actually kinda does end up being a robot in-game.

I'd argue the Grump's LP of DDLC is tropeable enough. They didn't know about Monika before starting the game, so the robot joke was completely organic. They also gave other characters unique personalities too, creating unique characers beyond what the game gave them.

Even if this one specific playthrough of theirs wasn't tropeworthy though, their content as a whole is for reasons already explained: Original comedy bits, fan-submitted animations, sketch-based commercials, and even some Ten Minute Power Hour episodes that took on their own mini-narratives.

So basically, if an LP is composed of entirely Walkthrough Mode and/or live reactions by a player, it is not enough to get a page? Is this the consensus yet?

(I have a very anti-deletionist bias in regards to large work like this, which is making it very hard for me to discuss these sorts of matters. But eventually I'll have to be the change I want to see in the world, and not watch it pass by.)

EDIT: x5: Oddly enough, the stuff in that embellishment list (maybe minus the exaggerated reactions stuff) are pretty much my own unwritten minimum standards on considering an LP tropable, even though Fighteer obviously doesn't intend for that list to be interpreted that way.

EDIT 2: The Babish thread had something EmeraldSource's two cents that I wholeheartedly agree with, might as well copy it here:

"Things like the Let's Plays, Streamers and Podcasts are difficult to trope because it is more like watching over someone's shoulder rather than something with storytelling intent. While technically media, it's not really intended as anything more than leaving a webcam running. The line though is how much of the content is curated for an audience, meaning editing, music, narration, title cards, etc. I might question a media page on a random channel or page that posts 15 second but otherwise unedited clips of animals doing cute things, but anyone who is making a clear effort to curate their content for an audience in an effort to tell a story should be fair game."

Edited by Albert3105 on May 7th 2021 at 3:31:37 PM

To be clear, my list above is meant to be taken as cases when an LP might be tropable: to open discussion, as it were. I don't like these intangible discussions. I want specifics that we can use as objective criteria. Revisiting the list...

My opinions:

1. No. It's just screaming at a camera. Not original or creative. Also, screaming into a microphone is not music.
2. Maybe. It depends a lot on whether the whole thing is done as an improvised RP or if it's just a few memes.
3. Maybe. The question is how much the editing transforms the LP into an original creative work.
4. Yes. These are some of my favorite kinds of LP, but it depends on the game. Doing it in Minecraft or Skyrim is one thing because those are deliberately set up as sandboxes; doing it in Doom Eternal is a little trickier. Some of these cross over into Machinima.
5. Yes, but most LP'ers who do this also do other Web Video content.
6. Yes, as long as the tropes are exclusively about the MST'ing and not the person doing it.

Summarized: is the LP transformative or just someone making silly faces at a camera? The edited note above is very much in line with my own thoughts.

Edited by Fighteer on May 7th 2021 at 4:45:57 AM