Tropes common in foreign media but rare/nonexistent in Anglophone media.

Should we catalog tropes that are common in media produced in other countries, but rare or nonexistent in Anglophone countries and Japan? Made me curious if there are tropes that have been used in, say Latin telenovelas, K-dramas, Bollywood movies, Soviet animation, or Chinese works, etc...

I remember one time that there was a draft proposal concerning Argentinian therapists which seems to have been common in Latin American media, but was discarded for being rare anywhere else. And also the time where I raised some concerns over the ambiguity of Nosebleed, because while it displays arousal and lust in anime, but in the Philippines, it means being astounded by someone speaking English, whether surprisingly good or piss-poor.

Considering that there are tropers who are not American or anywhere from the Anglophone countries, and some are not knowledgeable about Japanese media, and there are expressions and idioms that differ from one country to another, such as the aforementioned nosebleed, should we catalog foreign common tropes?

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Jul 25th 2020 at 4:21:19 PM

We most certainly do not want tropes to be exclusive to "anglophone" cultures. However, we are wary of the opposite phenomenon, where some sort of cachet or value is assigned to culture-specific tropes. We've spent years cleaning out the mess of Japanese trope names created by anime and manga fans who insisted that they were unique to Japanese culture.

Tropes are universal concepts. They may have their origins in specific cultures and indeed be highly concentrated within specific cultures, but we are not in the business of creating exclusive clubs where the Japanophiles can talk about their tropes and the Francophiles can talk about their tropes, etc. We want to be as broad and inclusive as possible.

This is why all tropes should have English titles and their articles must be written and maintained in English ahead of any translations. If they describe phenomena that are localized, that's relevant information, but they should not be treated as some sort of private club. If there are non-English terms or phrases for these tropes, they may be given redirects or example-less fanspeak articles.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 23rd 2020 at 9:21:54 AM

It's too big of a categorical hassle to properly manage, and editors may think a trope is oddly specific to one particular culture but is really quite universal. As a whole the wiki is not peer reviewed. I recall removing a claim that Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist was especially prevalent in British shows, while that might be true the implication was that they hold some sort of claim over the concept.

Yeah, there's nothing inherently wrong with troping something region-specific if it is region or culture specific, but there's a problem when people assume a specific trope is specific to one culture, even if it has variants in other cultures or only originated in one culture. If it's legit, it's legit, but it's almost never as narrow as it might seem.

The other problem is people claiming a culture-specific trope that's really just a special case of a more general trope. Such ended up being the fate of Tsundere... after a long and bitter fight to keep it unique.

And sometimes it's just that the trope manifests differently in other cultures. Tsundere is basically a variant of Master of the Mixed Message, but is so common in Japanese media it had its own terminology.

I'm still not happy it retained its Japanese title. We did manage to salvage some others.

Also, Bishōnen is just a Japanese term for Pretty Boy, right? The examples are split between East-Asian media vs. everything else, which shows that there's no inherent difference between the two beyond the terminology.

It's a similar situation, Bishōnen is a little more specific but would fall under the broader Pretty Boy concept. The main distinction is that a Bishonen is almost androgynous including long/shaggy hair, a slender figure and "delicate" mannerisms, while a Pretty Boy is more about extreme handsomeness and being well groomed as a contrast to more overtly masculine or hunky men.

The thing is the wiki originated as an English language site, while we are open to the use of foreign terms and names (technically speaking Film Noir and Deus ex Machina are foreign language terms) it shouldn't just be an identical trope with a different name attached.

Edited by KJMackley on Jul 25th 2020 at 12:08:38 PM

I think Bishōnen is more accurately a subtrope, not a duplicate, of Pretty Boy, as pointed out above. In addition to the delicate features, there's a certain flair to how anime and manga portrays them. I don't see the issue with culture-specific subtropes, like Boke and Tsukkomi Routine and Straight Man and Wise Guy.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 25th 2020 at 11:27:05 AM

The problem with Bishōnen is that it's a horrific ZCE magnet and nobody can figure out how to supply context for it. I've never been too phased by the similarities with Pretty Boy, but I also wouldn't mind merging them if it came to that. It's in bad shape either way.

From the description page for Pretty Boy, the distinction between that trope and Bishōnen is that the latter is "a lot more feminine in appearance and gentle in mannerism" than the former, which seems like The Same, but More.

Also, the last paragraph of Bishōnen has this as the stated distinction: "This is an East Asian media only trope. For pretty boys in other cultures see Pretty Boy. The difference is primarily cultural, and it is not at all uncommon for Animesque media to use this trope much in the same way as the examples here, but for convenience's sake, let's just put the Eastern ones here and the Western ones there." (which is to say, there is practically none).

I literally made some edits to the page yesterday. Previously it had a separate paragraph trying to distinguish the two with this justification.

• Note: East Asian media (particularly Japanese and Korean) uses a related trope, Bishōnen. The main difference appears to be that western media believes that males can be too pretty, and keeps the manpretty below a certain level for fear of making their heterosexual male viewers uncomfortable or confused.

I found that rather pointless because it claims the distinction to be that western media is homophobic, so I removed it and modified another paragraph to it's current stage.

• This doesn't necessarily mean he's androgynous or looks like a girl, though. The Bishōnen is a subtrope more common in East Asian works, especially Japanese anime, where the main distinction is that the character IS a lot more feminine in appearance and gentle in mannerism. Check out the Bishie Sparkle.

The distinction "Could be mistaken for female" is not The Same But More, as it's assuming that "extremely pretty and well groomed" is the same thing as "very feminine and gentle in mannerisms." It is precisely the different way anime portrays those type of pretty male characters that makes it a different trope. The Pretty Boy doesn't normally get the Bishie Sparkle.

Pardon to interrupt, but considering Bishonen and Pretty Boy, how would would this apply to, say, a pretty poy of white and Asian descent? Considering that the Philippines has a cultural fixation on both Western and East Asian beauty standards, where would that be put?

And how would Bishonen or Pretty Boy apply to super pretty African men?

Ethnicity is irrelevant to either trope, but since Bishonen is predominantly a Japanese concept and Pretty Boys tend to be fair skinned, blue eyed and blonde hair, characters with darker skin tones just don't come up as much for either. That's not to say its impossible (I know Tyrese Gibson has been accused of being a Pretty Boy) just not as common.

Edited by KJMackley on Jul 26th 2020 at 9:23:03 AM

It's kinda hard to describe angelically attractive men with darker skin tones without a trope for that...

In this case "pretty" is unfortunately rooted in Eurocentric beauty standards (sharp features like high cheekbones and thin noses etc), so it skews overwhelmingly white or mixed-white. I think a case can be made for mixed Southeast Asian/white actors, since beauty standards in SEA are Eurocentric as well and they tend to fit that bill. But I don't think a darker-skinned character should be discounted if they are specifically described as angelically-looking (note that 'angelic features' often mean 'fine European features' anyway).

Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:36:23 AM

This goes back to the mess with Personal Appearance Tropes. "Being pretty" or "being attractive" is not a trope in and of itself; it must come with some narrative significance or cultural meaning. Same with "having red hair" or "having dark skin".

The meaning is the trope, not the appearance.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 26th 2020 at 1:19:00 PM

If memory serves, the reason why Bishōnen and Pretty Boy are separate is because a) the distinction between anime tropes and general tropes used to be very contentious and b) the discussions on the issue did establish that there are some distinctions between the two. Two earlier discussions, the last with links to even older debates.

And those "differences" don't actually appear in the definitions of the tropes, with Bishonen still de facto being "Pretty Boy but in an Eastern work" and vice versa.

I personally did some modifications to the tropes after this discussion. I think the example split came from a misguided effort for clarity, but chose to make it culturally divided at the cost of diluting its own definition. Anime is especially known for having a Cast Full of Pretty Boys, which for the sake of diversity I don't think it makes every single one a Bishonen.

Very well said. If you are trying to find a cultural difference in the use of a particular trope, you're doing it wrong. "The Uruguayans do it differently, I swear," betrays your bias. We should be searching for similarities, not differences.

Kinda thinking about that. This thread is slowlu turning into a Bishonene threadz and there are other tropes tht are unique/prominent in foreign media that's not fully covered by Hollywood and anime.

Bishonen is just a prime example of tropers trying to enforce a culture-specific seperation on a trope that doesn't need it. I don't see the trope as the Japanese Pretty Boy, but a uniquely Japanese style of Pretty Boy and thus could have examples elsewhere (intentional or not). In contrast, no one was able to provide a clear distinction between Nakama and True Companions. As a general rule, tropes should be seen as universal across cultures and across mediums.

There are still a number of foreign language tropes with foreign names, but their isn't anything precluding non-native language examples. This partially extends from an older habit where tropers would push unique tropes from a belief that their favorite work is better because it uses different tropes. That's why we ended up pushing Tropes Are Tools pretty hard.

Anyway, do you think The Mall would be examined through this? I had actually an ATT thread of this prior. I don't know about the current status of malls in America, but malls in Asia are thriving, at least prior to the pandemic.

Yet the current description seems to omit the prevalence of full malls in Asia, despite the presence of online shopping there too.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Aug 5th 2020 at 10:24:52 PM