Misused: Self Imposed Challenge

I don't think that Self-Imposed Challenge is a Trope, but rather an Audience Reaction.

In most cases, the challenge is not acknowledged by the game, meaning that it exists only in the audience. This would make it an Audience Reaction, which is Not a Trope.

On the other hand, there are some examples where the game itself suggests extra challenge options to the player. In these cases, I'm not sure they should even count as "self-imposed", especially since they tend to give some kind of reward (whether it be unlockable content or simply a medal on the menu screen), meaning that rather than being a challenge for the Challenge Gamer, they're required for anyone that cares about 100% Completion.

I would suggest the following course of action:

1. Make Self-Imposed Challenge and its Sub Tropes into Audience Reactions and move them from the works' main pages to their YMMV page.

2. Move the examples where the challenge is suggested by the game to a new trope (unless such a trope already exists and I don't know about it).

Edited by Zuxtron on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:55:04 AM

Does it count as acknowledgement by the game if you get achievements (think Steam or similar) for completing them?

I'd say no, because the achievement is not imposed upon the player by themselves, but by the achievement list, which can be considered part of the game itself.

It might be a good idea of we point out in the description that we're really talking about an Externally Imposed Challenge. The player, in this rare case, counts as external to the work. In-game achievements are internally-encouraged challenges. There are Let's Play channels that impose challenges (like speed runs), and they would be external to the game, but In-Universe to the Let's Play.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

This issue reminds me of one TRS discussion: Stop Helping Me was split into a video game related audience reaction Annoying Video Game Helper and an in-universe trope Unwanted Assistance.

Honestly the trope as it is should be cut as it is just Troper Tales and replaced with several different tropes.

Imposed Challenge Mode Trophy: Where the game has an achievement or trophy for some challenge with some sort of easily ruined requirement.

Community Challenge: internet community challenges such as Speed Run community / AGDQ, Randomizers, Hitless runs, Final Fantasy V’s Four Job Fiesta, World Of Warcraft’s Iron Man challenge . Quantifiable things that can be sourced.

Edited by Memers on Apr 9th 2019 at 6:09:42 AM

So maybe the sub-tropes shouldn't be made YMMV since they are often recognized by the game itself. Instead, we should limit them to cases where the game itself acknowledges the challenge. Otherwise, we should just lump them into Self-Imposed Challenge if it becomes YMMV.

I'm thinking of the name Challenge Modifier for difficulty options that the game proposes.

I support having an Audience Reaction for actual self-imposed challenges (as in things not intentionally imposed by the creator(s), such as speedruns or low-level RPG playthroughs) and splitting off an objective trope for optional things that are objectively present in the game (if we don't already have one), such as achievements/trophies or hard-to-obtain Permanently Missable Content ^Example such as Excalibur II in Final Fantasy IX, which requires getting to the last area in the game in less than 12 hours and thus is the reward for what is basically a developer-endorsed speedrun.

If it matters, I agree with crazysamaritan that self-imposed challenges from let's players would be in-universe examples of the Audience Reaction.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 10th 2019 at 6:47:06 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

The problem with that is they need to be sourced by some community of players. Anything that comes down to 'This Troper did a no hit run or speed run of X game' or 'its possible to do a no hit run in X game' is not a trope.

Also at the same time just any game with a speed run record or anything is not a trope as well. We are not Speedrun.com

Edited by Memers on Apr 10th 2019 at 8:33:02 AM

I'm OK with requiring examples to have some sort of basis in challenges established in games' communities. I agree with what you said in your other post about how having Troper Tales-like entries shouldn't be allowed.

I think a good example of a self-imposed challenge that demonstrably exists in a community would be Nuzlocke challenges (and the various variants thereof) in Pokémon, especially since they're popular with let's players.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 10th 2019 at 1:33:14 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I'm also in favor of splitting, with one part preserving the self-imposed challenges as an Audience Reaction and spinning off in-game challenges as a separate trope. Challenge Mode would make a nice trope name for that in my opinion.

Also, mentioned in the OP is Challenge Gamer, currently it looks like a copy of Self-Imposed Challenge and has almost all of the listed problems Self-Imposed Challenge has: it's mostly a list of challenges you can do in a video game. In fact it has so many video game examples that if you cut them, you're left with a measly 4 examples... On the other hand those 4 examples do look like they're applicable to what the trope should be about: people challenging themselves by playing games in unconventional ways.

Nuzlocke is a good example of a. Community Challenge, there are lots of streams and even a codified rule set [1]

I can get behind a split.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Supporting a split between community challenges and game-imposed challenges.

There's this TLP draft, Arrange Mode, which could work for challenges imposed by the game.

Support a split, and the TLP draft is a start for game-imposed challenges.

That seems to me like it's more specific. Challenges that don't remix the level could also be included in the split-off game-imposed challenges trope. (For example, a Minimalist Run or No-Damage Run that a game gives as a challenge, without modifying the levels or mechanics)

We've discussed the following split;

• Trope: Game system allows for additional restrictions
• Audience Reaction: Players impose additional restrictions during play (focus on In-Universe examples, such as Let's Play channels, to make examples verifiable).

Reading through the non-game examples, I also want a third split;

• Trivia: Creator imposed a restriction on how they made a work.

This would be for stuff like "Hush" and NaNoWriMo.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I'm currently writing up a TLP draft for challenges that the game acknowledges. I'm taking examples from Self-Imposed Challenge that fit that definition better.

Edited by Zuxtron on Jun 11th 2019 at 2:58:50 PM

The TLP draft has been made. It's not very nice, but it's a start.

I agree with this course of action. I assume the Self-Imposed Challenge name would stay with the YMMV trope?

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Wouldn't the non-game examples fall under Constrained Writing?

Keet cleanup

That's what I was thinking, using Green Eggs and Ham as a reference.

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