Hate Sink cleanup

It's definitely one of the most infamous sidequests in FFXVI for how over-the-top it is.

@deathbattlewatcher5 has added a Hate Sink entry on Emperor Belos, with @Cartoon LGB Tfanofall Time writing this hidden comment.

I had consistently told @Cartoon LGB Tfanofall Time time and time again to refer to this thread to make their argument about Belos being a Hate Sink, but it seems they have ignored the thread completely since I saw no arguments here. An edit war is inevitable, and I am afraid that we may need to put a bold hidden comment to tell editors to not add Hate Sink on Belos' overly long character page, with Judge Claude Frollo used as an example of a villain that is no longer considered a Hate Sink due to the refining of the definition.

Edited by Shadao on Sep 8th 2023 at 2:40:40 AM

When the edit war happens just report them.

That's also not how edit wars work; someone random removing the entry (like me for example, who's never touched that page before) will not be instigating an edit war unless they add him back. So does that mean this is a declaration of intent to do so?

Oh for the love of Pete, no. As much as I disapprove of his actions, this trope is not to be used for real people in the slightest.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Sep 8th 2023 at 6:08:27 AM

Got a cut proposal in the form of Ralph Cifaretto from the Sopranos

Hate Sink: Given that he's a toxic, socially repugnant individual willing to kill his own pregnant girlfriend with his bare hands, it's not hard to imagine that Ralph was deliberately written to be unlikable. Heck, most characters In-Universe hate him. He tried to be better after his son's accident, but even that did not stop Tony's bubbling resentment, which culminates with him brutally murdering Ralph.

Don't get me wrong, the guy's a giant piece of shit, but he's generally considered a fan favorite due to being very Laughably Evil, Joey Pants's charismatic performance and Ralph having many quotable and hilarious lines. Even putting all that aside though, the big thing that makes me unsure about his status as a Hate Sink is that before his abrupt death, Ralph was in the middle of an ambiguous redemption arc after his son was hospitalized. There's signs that he may have been starting to change as a person, and the thing that ultimately got him killed (supposedly burning down a horse stable for insurance money, leading the death of a horse Tony loved and a brawl between the two that ends in Ralph's death) is deliberately left ambiguous if he actually did that or if it really was a case of faulty wiring, with conflicting answers from out of universe sources and no one in the show knowing for absolute certain either.

Because of his death we'll never know if his possible change was genuine or if it would have been temporary at best, nor if he was responsible for the stable fire. But this combined with the earlier points made and I'm not entirely sure Ralph really belongs on this trope.

Edited by marston on Sep 10th 2023 at 10:43:53 AM

He's got an Alas, Poor Villain moment on his character page and much of his entries are written in a more grayish tone. I'm getting vibes of a Black-and-Grey Morality world where even good guys have shitty qualities, which means that a Hate Sink would have to be a lot more cartoonishly obvious. Granted, Ralph's character page requires a little clean up regarding if he's Affably Evil or Faux Affably Evil.

Overall, I would cut it on the grounds that while he's a hateable character, he doesn't seem to be a one-dimensional character that the audience will boo and hiss at him without any conflict.

Edited by Shadao on Sep 10th 2023 at 10:52:39 AM

Have a potential cut from Characters.Hot Fuzz:

• Hate Sink: Putting aside his humorous qualities and affable facade, Skinner is a despicable, psychopathic monster who lacks any real sympathetic qualities and revels in gleefully murdering innocent people.

It's been a while since I've seen the film as a whole, but from many of the clips I've seen, I get the impression that Skinner is supposed to be more of a comedic, charismatic and blatantly obvious villain than Frank, with said charisma and comedy emphasized.

If anything, I'd consider Martin Blower to be more deliberately detestable as an entitled driver and narcissist, even if his fate is portrayed as excessive.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 15th 2023 at 12:41:25 PM

You know it's a bad example when it starts with "Ok, ignore these parts of the character."

Cut.

Cut Skinner. To say he's a Hate Sink is like saying he's the Big Bad of the movie. Oh yes, he's awful but he doesn't really stand out as truly detestable when all his co-conspirators are equally petty and horrible. In fact, he only stands out as Laughably Evil.

Now here's something I found from Kipo And The Age Of Wonder Beasts, on Dr. Emila's folder:

• Hate Sink: For all her supposed good intentions, Emilia racks up a number of incredibly heinous deeds in pursuit of them, namely torturing Hugo for his pheromones, enslaving her mutated colleague to use as a weapon, and plotting to murder said colleague's daughter once she's outlived her usefulness purely because of her Mute powers. Nothing about her ruthlessness is played as funny or charming. Season three reveals that she killed her own brother and blamed mutes for his death, and she tries to kill Kipo after she saved Emilia from being stuck as a mega-mute without any anchor.

This sounds like a Complete Monster-lite entry (which is unnecessary since she's already has a Complete Monster entry), and much of her character suggests a more complicated villain than just being awful, namely being a tragic villain and dark reflection on what Kipo could have been. She may count, I haven't seen the series, but this is how not to write a Hate Sink entry imo.

Edited by Shadao on Sep 15th 2023 at 12:21:34 PM

Cut both; Skinner is way too funny and Emilia's not only reads like CM-lite but also recapping misdeeds of hers across the series like you'd expect of the Big Bad.

Have cut Skinner's entry, linking this thread.

Found this on Invader Zim: Irken Empire regarding the Allmighty Tallest:

• Hate Sink: Comedic moments aside, the Tallest are both callous, genocidal, utterly unsympathetic cowards who horribly mistreat even their most loyal soldiers, and actually make Zim himself look sympathetic by comparison. It's pretty telling that the vast majority of the the Tallest's jokes involve them getting a blast of karma to the face.

Could've sworn i got them cut before, but yeah they're nowhere near this trope. They are way, way too comedic for this, their sociopathy is exclusively Played for Laughs. The "comedic moments" they tell you to ignore is 99% of their screentime

As for Emilia, I think that she may well be suitable. She still embodies the type of person who affirms the goodness of the world, but commits incredibly monstrous acts, and at the same time, she is ultimately responsible for almost all evil. You can remove it if you feel like it, but honestly, I personally don't think the complexity should be an issue. This is just my position (I sincerely believe that Belos and Scar are also suitable). Still good work and arguments.

Is it possible to add a trope to Bioshock Infinite's Big Bad Zachary Hale Comstock? He is a vile supremacist, a virulent racist, an oppressor of minorities who is turning Columbia into a personality cult of himself and most vile of all, his ultimate intentions. Record Player Punch I think it’s better to clarify. ,,Comstock House. The very creepy and distorted music, tears of Elizabeth screaming her guts out as she's mutilated until she's a shell of herself, the old recordings of Elizabeth bitterly accepting her new role as Comstock's successor. And then, to cap it off, seeing an old evil version of herself destroying the world. If you didn't hate Comstock earlier, you will now."

Yes, technically Elizabeth isn't his daughter, but since he's Booker De Witt from the alternate story, she's technically still his daughter. He was still raising her anyway, so she could be considered his child anyway. Painfully and painfully torture her for many years, destroying her former morale and all her joy of life, disfiguring her psychologically and emotionally so much that she forever lost faith that the Bouquet will save her. And he forces her to become his successor in order to completely destroy the entire lower world, that is, the entire world, except for his own Colombia. And why? Because the whole world is sinful. Or to be more precise, because Comstock simply doesn’t like the fact that the world is not the way HE wanted. And needless to say, he is a blatant hypocrite, always blaming anyone but himself? Oh yeah, he also killed his wife, who loved him dearly, and then he forcibly resurrects her and subjects her to a fate worse than death. And he also turned ordinary citizens, whether disabled or with a terminal illness or simply with a normal life, into Handymen... which was an extremely painful life.

No, he doesn't have any "Evil is Cool" likes or anything like that. I personally don't agree that "Evil is Cool" and similar qualities disqualify Hate Sink (which was the main reason Scar was cut and Philip), but in the end this is clearly controversial and even here Comstock has nothing. He's just your typical narcissist, wanting the whole world to revolve around him and him alone. There's nothing attractive about it. Just a monstrous tyrant with delusions of grandeur who will break and destroy lives in a very cruel and painful way, like his own citizens or his own family, and then will blame anyone, anything, but himself.

And I forgot to add that he blamed Daisy Fitz for the death of his wife, which led to the emergence of the rebel movement "Eyes of the People" and further forced Columbia into chaos.

I apologize if I didn’t explain it well, I’m tired, I’ll add something tomorrow and I hope I’ll explain better if necessary. But I think Comstock fits. He seems more hateful than Jeramine Fink, who at least cares about his brother and has some standards, plus his death is somewhat sympathetic, plus you could argue that he's just a cog in Comstock's system. If he could, then I think Comstock himself could do it even more so.

Another example that says "if you ignore a significant part of their characterization, they fit this trope."

Clear cut.

Yeah the Tallest are way too funny line the rest of Zim's cast to count.

Did the person who added it again edit war ?

That's Emila being the Big Bad, not Emila being an uncool villain that no one wants to look up to. My issue isn't that Emila doesn't count, my issue is that Emilia's entry doesn't explain why I should consider her to be Umbridge or Lady Tremaine instead of villains like Voldemort or Maleficent. If the personality matches with what you expect from Hate Sink, then it should be rewritten to reflect it. Otherwise, it should be cut for misuse.

Okay, why would someone put the entry in F-Zero X regarding Beastman with this trope, saying that he is this gameplay wise because almost every other race sees him as an potential "enemy" for basically every non-human racer (and Baba). This is meant for character/personality-wise hateable characters, not in gameplay-wise. This should be definitely cut, right? But I want to keep the information somewhere, as it might fit another trope instead.

Edit was by Sammettik at Dec 20th 2019 at 9:47:16 AM

Edited by JustNormalMusicLover on Sep 15th 2023 at 9:51:46 PM

Sorry, I understand, but I just didn't express myself very well. Thanks anyway for the explanation. Sorry if I offended you.

Any thoughts on Comstock?

That's definitely misuse. I'm not sure what trope I'd replace it with—I don't think Hated by All would work as it's just the non-human racers and Baba who hate him. I'd just comment it out until we can find one that fits.

Edited by ShootingStar7X on Sep 16th 2023 at 8:02:09 AM

In Yellowjackets (a group of girls who are deeply traumatised aka Lord Of The Flies), Mari has

Hate Sink: She's the kind of Jerkass mean girl that exists for one of the other characters to sass.

I think user fearlessnikki is kinda unfair on all of them to be honest, but Mari is also Out of Focus, which I think disqualifies her anyway.

Edited by emeriin on Sep 16th 2023 at 2:00:37 PM

That entry kinda feels like a stretch to me. Besides that (and what you mentioned), I don't think she counts because she has at least one Pet the Dog moment (from my experience Hate Sinks tend to lack humanizing moments).

Aight, I commented it (but accidentally left it by changing it to Hated by All, but I still left it commented because it's not definite/sure yet). I still technically cut the misuse from Beastman from F-Zero though.]

Edit: Doesn't fit for Hated by All, since some racers are still neutral towards him. However, it's mentioned under Gameplay and Story Integration according to the main page for F-Zero, so I put it under this trope for now, which seems possible for it to make sense due towards his Disproportionate Retribution against animals.

Edited by JustNormalMusicLover on Sep 18th 2023 at 2:25:48 AM

Mari is not a Hate Sink. She is unlikable but she does have sympathetic moments as she’s still just a scared teenager lost and scared in the woods.