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The character pages for Sonic the Hedgehog are currently separated into "teams" and other groups. While certain characters do tend to interact more often than others, it still seems arbitrary to me to split the characters pages like this when only one game has ever actually used this system. "Team Rose" in particular has only ever grouped together as listed once, which the page acknowledges.
Certain "characters" are also given entries that really don't need them. I'm talking about the enemy units, like the GUN Robots, and the Egg Golem, among other entities which also lack any real characterization at all. Let's be honest, the only reason Tails Doll is listed at all is because he became a meme; he's not a real character, and he would've been forgotten entirely by now if not for that. Metal Knuckles from the same game doesn't have his own entry.
Finally, there's the issue that several entries list tropes which only apply to adaptations, like the shows or comics, which have their own character pages. Thankfully, there's not a lot of this, so it won't be hard to move the examples over to the proper pages. For the same reason, I'd also suggest only listing the voice actors that have appeared in the games themselves, so Sonic's voice actors in the OVA or SatAM don't need to be listed, for example. This is no longer an issue.
I suggest organizing the character pages as such:
I (loosely) defined "Major Character" as:
A. They had more than one appearance (Self-explanatory). B. They had a role in a major release (i.e. Not a spin-off like the Sonic Storybook Series). C. They had a major, playable appearance (i.e. Not a Joke Character or Secret Character, like Heavy and Bomb or Bean and Bark). D. They had a major role in the plot of their game (i.e. Not just Mission Control like Professor Pickle). E. They haven't been subjected to Chuck Cunningham Syndrome (i.e. They have appeared in any game, mainline or spin-off, within the last five years).
I haven't played every Sonic game out there, so if anyone thinks this list needs any tweaks, feel free to suggest them. In particular, I've never played Sonic Chronicles, so I know nothing about Shade and Ix, but they should probably have spots on the list.
Edited by Primis on Nov 4th 2018 at 6:00:58 AM
Ix is the main villain of Chronicles who tried to turn Knucklehead to his side at the end of the game. Shade is an general of some sorts who betrays Ix halfway through the game.
Fuck anyone who didn't get more than one boss fight or an LOT of dialogue during their screen time.
I just realized that Sonic Chronicles has its own character page, so we can just move those entries over to the main ones.
Shouldn't you wait for more people to join the conversation, first?
I haven't done anything...
So... anyone else have anything to add?
I was thinking that instead of having general "Main Characters" or "Supporting Characters" pages like my original suggestion, we could instead have pages for each game and place characters in the pages for the games that they debuted in.
Admittedly, this would require a lot more pages, but it would definitely be easier than deciding who does and doesn't count as a major character, since that can, and often does, change on a whim with this series.
Edited by Primis on Oct 11th 2018 at 1:51:38 AM
Did you link this thread to the Sonic thread, yet?
I'm pretty sure that you'll get more responses there than waiting on an nearly dead subforum.
I highly disagree with cutting any character pages just because you think we don't need them. Especially since other franchises have similar entries (like Mario) and characters like the Biolizard and the Knuckles Clan are important to the Sonic franchise.
"Other pages do it, too" is not a compelling reason to keep superfluous entries.
I disagree that the Biolizard and Knuckles' Clan (and the others) are "important to the franchise". I specifically chose what entries to cut based on how little they mattered, it was not personal preference.
The Biolizard's relevance to the plot is entirely dependent on Gerald Robotnik, who is an actual character, whereas the Biolizard is just a plot device with absolutely no character or agency to speak of. It only exists to provide a Final Boss fight, it doesn't deserve an entry any more than Eggman's various Humongous Mecha do.
Knuckles' Clan could justify an entry, if they were properly developed. The only ones from that group that mattered were Tikal and Pachacamac, who have their own entries. Literally everyone else was a Palette Swap of Knuckles, and none of them had even a single speaking line. Their entry currently has only two tropes, one of which is an appearance trope and the other is something that is, again, dependent on another character. They don't even have a proper name, we're just calling them "Knuckles' Clan"! They don't deserve their own entry any more than the citizens of Station Square do.
Unless you can provide an airtight explanation on why the Tails Doll, E-104 Epsilon, and King Boom Boo are all integral to the franchise, I see no reason to keep them other than to pad out the character pages.
Edited by Primis on Oct 21st 2018 at 11:55:10 AM
"Other pages do it, too" shows precedent and the site standard. This site is a wiki that shows how tropes interact with any element of a franchise. It details everything from the main titles (like Sonic Adventure) to the side entries that people don't normally know about and left no impact. (like Sonic Eraser) Nothing here is superfluous, its additional information on how tropes play into the Sonic franchise. Just because you can't see the value in having pages for enemies and minor characters throughout tv tropes doesn't mean they have no value.
The Biolizard hijacks Space Colony Ark to fulfill it's creator's revenge scheme even though it knew that it would die if it did that. While Eggman's various Humongous Mecha have to be piloted by Eggman, they are just extensions on his character.
The Knuckles Clan are a faction and they did get more development in Chronicles. The Knuckles Clan is their actual name, Knuckles himself was named after the group, not the other way around.
Like I said tv tropes covers everything. If you deleted everything that isn't "integral" the site would lose a lot of information and be less fun to read.
Since when am I supposed to care about what happened to E-103 and E-104? They're both minor characters who were "liberated" by an more important robot, and the game barely expanded on them...Aside that they were members of an line of elite machines that Eggman disowned for failing him.
As for content, it's only the killed off for real trope attached to the both of them. This ain't much, obviously.
I think that you're missing the point of integral, since the OP is mostly talking about minor bosses and the Tails Doll.
Edited by RabidTanker on Oct 22nd 2018 at 6:54:10 AM
There Is No Such Thing as Notability is the policy, but so is People Sit on Chairs. The "chairs" in this case being "NPCs and Enemy Units exist". I'm not saying that there are no tropes to be found in these kinds of things at all, only that they do not belong on the character pages, because they are not characters, any more so than the various Mineral MacGuffins across the franchise are.
I said that I've never played Sonic Chronicles in the OP, so I didn't know that the Knuckles Clan got more development in that game. If that's accurate, then yes, they can keep their entry. But that entry desperately needs to be expanded, because two (superficial) tropes is not worth keeping.
However I stand by cutting the Biolizard entry. There is absolutely nothing in Sonic Adventure 2 that says, or even implies, that attaching itself to the ARK was a conscious choice it made, and not just a contingency plan as part of Gerald's programming. That is pure fanon. Unless, of course, there is some other Sonic game where the Biolizard got a ton more development that I'm unaware of. I doubt it, though.
Honestly, just imagine the end of SA2 without the Biolizard. What changes? Nothing, really. The ARK would still fall, and Sonic and co. would still stop it. The Biolizard isn't mentioned after it's defeated. Its body isn't even in the cutscene after it's killed, it's just gone.
Edited by Primis on Oct 22nd 2018 at 7:51:56 AM
The lore of Knuckles' clan was expanded by justifying their chief's need for the Chaos Emeralds by putting them at war against an technologically advanced civilization...who was about to kick their asses. But then God actually picked up the Nocturnus Clan and left them floating around in an new dimension. Chaos still wiped them out, though.
As for the Biolizard, let me tell you an story...It never got expanded, it was forgotten, and nobody cared about it... except for the people who where scared of Shadow. That's it. The End.
On an side note, I kind of hate There Is No Such Thing as Notability, but who cares?
Edited by RabidTanker on Oct 22nd 2018 at 8:35:24 AM
It does sound like we could get at least a few tropes from the Knuckles Clan, then. I'm not surprised by the Biolizard, though.
The notability policy is definitely a double-edged sword. I understand its purpose, but people do tend to cite it to justify creating pages for really inane things.
Don't get too excited, I was talking about the time where Ix causes an flashback by talking about why he wants the Emeralds.
Other than the coresponding codex entries, that's it.
So... they didn't get more development in Chronicles, is what you're saying? Is it at least true that their name is actually "The Knuckles Clan" and that Knuckles was named after them?
Now that I'm thinking about it though, I wonder if we should even include tropes from Chronicles anyway, considering that it's been chucked into the Canon Discontinuity bin, thanks to the Ken Penders lawsuit.
According to the Sonic News Network wiki, the Knuckles Clan apparently created the Chaos Rings. So, that's something...
I have read the page for People Sit on Chairs and it only applies to the creation of new tropes, not character entries. With There Is No Such Thing as Notability as the policy, we can put this issue to bed and talk about the other side of your topic, the rearrangement of the characters. I think its fine for the most part, (though I do think a Eggman Empire folder would be beneficial) the only thing I disagree with in placement is putting the GUN Commander into the Major Antagonists folder as he was more a supporting character for the heroes.
Uh, you're not a mod. You don't get to just decide that a discussion is over and that you're right, especially not when the discussion is going in a way that you disagree with. That's not how this works, this wiki runs on consensus above all else.
Once again, I am not saying that there are no tropes that apply to the enemy units, only that they do not belong on the character pages, because they are not characters. What about that is so objectionable?
The GUN Commander was a Hero Antagonist in his only appearance, that's why I listed him there. Same with Merlina, her nature as the Big Bad of that game was The Reveal, so I listed her as an ally to not spoil that.
I'm not opposed to an Eggman Empire folder, but realistically, it would essentially be the same as the "Major Antagonists" folder, just minus Black Doom and the GUN Commander, and a folder just for those two is unnecessary.
This is all irrelevant though if we go with character pages for specific games instead, an idea I brought up a while ago that nobody has commented on.
Edited by Primis on Oct 24th 2018 at 12:35:45 PM
I didn't say I was a mod and you were the one that found the policy, usually we are supposed to follow those. How about we get an actual mod to settle it then? I object because I do see them as minor characters, especially because some of them are the basis around a whole character's motivation (E-102 Gama) or is a entire species. (Flickes, which had about as much characterization as the chao) These entries are doing no harm.
Specific games are fine.
Tell me one tropeworthy thing about E-104 Epsilon that isn't an appearance trope or actually about Gamma, the E-Series, or Eggman's robots in general, and you might convince me that they are worth keeping. Something providing motivation for a character does not automatically make it a character itself. You could replace Delta, Epsilon and Zeta with Capsules and literally nothing would change about Gamma's story.
The Chao had far more characterization and prominence than the Flickies ever did, as well as actual plot relevance with Sonic Adventure. Two Chao in particular (Cheese and Omochao) have become recurring characters, and sometimes the Chao are even playable. The Flickies meanwhile vanished for over a decade and barely anybody even noticed until they suddenly came back in Sonic 4.
Just because you consider some things to be characters, doesn't mean that they are. We're not going to create entries for the Giant Frogs in Sonic Heroes, or that one particular GUN Soldier in Shadow in the cutscene after Westopolis, we don't need entries for the Boos of all things (which objectively have never had any plot relevance at all, they're just there).
It is ironic, though, that that single GUN Soldier has more characterization than the entirety of the Knuckles Clan.
Edited by Primis on Oct 24th 2018 at 6:23:45 AM
So I take it you don't want to involve a mod? Out of the E Series line in Sonic Adventure Epsilon is the Fragile Speedster of the group, having the fastest shooting speed. The real problem with the E Series is they should've had been grouped together like the Hard Boiled Heavies or the Mecha/Silver Sonic line.
The flickies were a part of the original group of Sonic's animal friends,(which it shares it's entry with) live in their own dimension, had a plot relevant role as well in Sonic 3D: Flickies' Island, had its own arcade game and the attack pet idea that Cheese uses came originally from flickies' shared super form with Tails. (notably its the flickes that change color not Tails) They also appeared far more often than you said, appearing in the Advance series, the Rush series and Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, all which take place before 4 but were in the Adventure era.
The definition of character is a person in a novel, play, movie, etc. and all of the entries you have have a problem with are located in the character portal of the Sonic wiki.(Sonic News Network) G.U.N already has a entry covering the solders. Which actually has less tropes than the boom boos.
Part of the problem for that is the Knuckles Clan were more of a thing in Japan's version of Sonic 3 and Knuckles Chaotix. (like the Chaos Rings mentioned earlier) They were even responsible for that mural that prophesied the battle between Hyper/Super Sonic and Eggman.
Okay, just a second here.
Alright, that settles that. Thanks.
Could you clarify if we should add tropes to a character's entry if said tropes are only from a work that has since been declared non-canon?
Was it originally part of canon/continuity and then severed? Most long-running and/or highly franchised works maintain several levels of canon: what happens in the primary series; what happens in spinoff, companion, or adapted works; and what happens in Expanded Universe works. For example, the Star Wars Expanded Universe doesn't contribute tropes to the character pages for the major films.
I don't know enough about Sonic to be certain whether that applies here, but very broadly speaking, something that is officially out of canon should not be troped on articles dedicated to official canon.
The game in question, Sonic Chronicles, was technically a spinoff, but it was considered canon at the time of release.
Long story short, the game got Screwed by the Lawyers, causing the planned sequel to be canceled, and all the new characters introduced in it were Exiled from Continuity. Chronicles ends with a cliffhanger that has never been and almost certainly never will be resolved, and no subsequent game has ever mentioned anything relating to Chronicles' plot. The entire game might as well have never happened.
Edited by Primis on Oct 25th 2018 at 10:51:58 AM
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