During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
scaramanga. (One of my personal favourite Bond Villains)
So who will be the other james bond canditates. Alec trevelyan and silvia come to mind but anyone else.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
You got 'em. I'll be proposing them soon. Honestly, I don't think anyone else keeps. One may be able to make a case for Dr. Julius No, but I'll visit that down the road.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Alright, got another EP for today. I'm not sure if she necessarily counts due to some of the mitigating factors that she had...But I think she deserve a real discussion.
What's the Work
RUINER is a cyberpunk video game produced by Reikon Games. The story is set in 2091 in Rengkok City, a dystopian hellhole metropolis where crimes run rampant and the city was controlled by HEAVEN, a shady organization that was specialized in virtual reality. Needless to say, HEAVEN has some horrible secrets and shadowy corruption behind the shadows and they just saw the average people's lives are nothing more than amusing playthings.
The story is about the unnamed silent protagonist. Who is actually...In fact a mask-donning sociopathic person. However, in this story, the silent protagonist's brother got kidnapped and tries at his best to save him from trouble even if he's going to kill the guys who stands in his way. To this end, he got an help by the mysterious girl named HER who claims to be the best hacker in the world...And needless to say, HER has some ulterior motives on why she helped the protagonist to save his brother...
Who Is She/What Has She Done
HER is a mysterious hacker that ended up become the protagonist ally throughout the game. In her first appearance, she saved the protagonist when he tries to break the Heaven's security gate thanks to the fact that his mind was hacked by another hacker named WIZARD who also tries to kill him with the timer if he doesn't assassinate the boss of HEAVEN and their subordinates quickly. After HER saved the protagonist, she then told the nameless protagonist that his younger brother was kidnapped and then the journey to save the protagonist's begins. Throughout the game, she is mostly act as a guide for the protagonist and sometimes call him "Puppy". Needless to say, when they're on the mission to save the nameless protagonist's brother...She does have some extreme side to her. Which I'll bring in the "Is she a bastard? Too Much?" section. But spoiler alert!!!!!
It turns out at the end of the game, there was never any kidnapped brother. She just exploited the protagonist as her own attack dog in order to kill those who conspire against the big boss of HEAVEN which is in fact the protagonist's older brother and it was revealed that in the end, she also helps the CEO for a project called BIG BROTHER project. However, it was also all a ruse to gain the CEO's trust so that she could access HEAVEN's tight security in which it could only be accessed by the nameless protagonist himself. Not only that, she also starts "breaking down", as her visage becomes more and more robot-like, suggesting she may be a cyborg or an AI. After this HER then tells the protagonist to kill all the mooks that the HEAVEN's boss sent to him and then set the same timer that Wizard had in the early chapters on the game. However, at the same time, she said to the protagonist that she is free from her control and tell him to met her when the HEAVEN falls.
Is She Charming,Charismatic,Thinks on her feet?
Alright, here's the deal about HER...She is actually pretty intelligent when it comes to her plans. From her skillful deception to the protagonist, her ability to pull out an interesting gambits in the end by using the protagonist as an attack dog to gain the trust from the CEO of heaven by killing those who conspire against him but at the same time, she want to gain that trust in order to kill the boss, her ability to hack so that she could blackmail somebody and so on.
As far as her charismatic part goes, she's a skilled actor that used her kind persona to trick the protagonist becoming her own personal attack dog to kill all the people who conspire against the CEO and saving the protagonist's brother was the part of her plan. She also able to trick the HEAVEN's CEO as it was revealed to the end, she does have some ulterior motive to gain his trust so yeah...
Is She a Bastard? Too Much?
Okee Dokee...Here's my main problem with HER qualifying for this trope. Despite being the ally of the protagonist for most of the game, she is faaaaaar from saint. As she used the protagonist as her own personal attack dog to murder countless people and almost putting him in constant danger to the point that she almost threaten to kill the protagonist.
She is also a liar,a torturer, a blackmailer and she was ready to mind rape someone whoever has a valuable information or outright kill them...The torturer part comes across as a bit ugly when she tortures two of the guys who conspire against the boss by extremely electrocute them in the head...Especially on WIZARD's case where she tortures her not only to gain an information, but also to teach him a lesson for messing with the protagonist's brain. And then there's this scene near the end of the game where the protagonist was unable to cross the force-field that could making a protagonist ended up becoming a roasted meat or could severely fried them, she let the protagonist electrocute the enemy in order to open the force-field for them...
Needless to say after that force-field scene, she's a little bit terrified when she saw this by saying: "Whoa, that was brutal. I guess we pushed him a little to hard." but one second later, she also said this: "Oh well, at least he didn't die before he unlocked that passage right? Let's go get your brother back. No time like the present!" to the protagonist. Then again...A lot of her enemies aren't much of a saint either as they conspire against the boss and one of them was just trying to hack his brain to kill him. And for the blackmailing part...She found some nasty info on one of the character, Mechanix, and use the blackmailing tool in order to help the protagonist. Oh! And bonus points that she always trash-talk when she talks. However, I don't think this changes anything so yeah...
But, needless to say...Of all the deception,the torture,the indirect mass murder,the blackmail and the mind rape that she had done...Her end goal is well-intentioned. As she is horrified by the dystopian setting that HEAVEN has implemented and then there's the fact that she wanted to freed all the millions of people that was trapped in that hellish Virtual Reality. Also, despite she used the protagonist as an attack dog and in the end she wanted the protagonist to become her trojan horse and then implement the same timer that the WIZARD implements in the first chapter to kill all the mooks that the HEAVEN boss sent, she still shown some care towards the protagonist to a certain degree even if it's rather ambiguous. Evidenced by the fact that she dislike WIZARD hacking the protagonist's brain and then tries to teach him the same lesson even if you can tell it's for pragmatic reasons... And then there's the fact that in the end, despite implementing the same timer, she told the protagonist was freed from her control and bids a temporary farewell to the protagonist and told to meet her in person when HEAVEN falls...Thought this is rather ambiguous if she cares or not towards the protagonist. But yeah...With that being said, I'm still rather torn on this one.
Final Verdict
I was leaning towards a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
given on some mitigating factors that she had...However, Even if I think she doesn't make it to the MB trope. I'm still cool with that and I'll accept it. But until then, I'll let you guys decide for the verdict.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I'm leaning to her.
I mean, she's a bitch, but her enemies seems to be worse.
Also, the limits of how much a bastard are limited to rape and being (too much of a)Politically Incorrect Villain (I'll have my own opinions on this). We have guys that allow Space!Mussolini kill billions in order to reach their goals.
As long she keeps her style, she can be this trope.
Compared to most of the guys here, she is genuinely good.
This trope is about bastards, from Anti-Villain and very dark Anti-Hero to Complete Monster (however, given that most CM are written to be utterly despicable, the trope are almost mutually excuyent, almost)
edited 30th May '18 11:35:33 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Yea to Scaramanga and I just lean yea to your candidate as well Elfen. For Mind Rape itself, as long as it's not being given the tone of actual rape and "just" torturing/destroying someone's mind, I'm well, I don't wanna say "fine with it" but I think it's acceptable for an MB.
Goku Black
her
Doesnt sound too bad too be honest compared to other villains that were approved here like say hannibal (Cannibal serial killer) or rau le creust (Who tried to kill all of humanity)
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
About bastards...said this. I just want to say that now I have decided. And I say that I wanna cut The Killer from Boku Dake Ga Inai Machi.
Now, I know that he is one of the first keepers of this very thread and I think that I voted from him too, but...
1) The obvious. He kill freaking children. While the frame up and the manipulation is impressive...he kills children, including trying to drown a Littlest Cancer Patient.
2) His manga version helped his brother to rape girls. Sure, it wasnt his idea but...he never showed remorse for him, that is one of the reasons of why he is a Complete Monster, he was complicit with his Serial Rapist brother.
Sorry but...I fail to call that Magnificent.
This is also one of the reasons of why I downvoted Littlefinger from ASOIAF. Regardless if the Deliberate Values Dissonance makes his harassement of Sansa more "aceptable" (lets no discuss that)...
He is also someone who forced a 11-years old into prostitution and then send her to Ramsay Bolton, a man that is know for having raped a old lady among many, many brutal things. And he wants to pay a nobleman with "gold and little children", which means that he is willing to help a pedophile by providing him with victims.
Something similar happens with The Killer from ERASED. He did help his Serial Rapist brother to get victims and feel zero guilt about it.
edited 30th May '18 12:27:02 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
To scaramanga and her
edited 30th May '18 12:25:05 PM by G-Editor
You're welcome to vote nay, but he was approved by the thread. He also didn't actually rape anyone himself, I would note.
On second thought about the Killer, I'm inclined to agree with Kazuya here. Ravok, I know you're the one who did him here and for CM so lemme ask... is there a case to be made for the anime version, where I know his brother is absent and he's given some manner of redeeming qualities?
Y'know what? Lemme read the manga myself so I'm not just doing a back and forth on what folks say.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
We're aware of what constitutes rape, Kaz. No one is saying he's a good person, what's being stated is that he himself was not a rapist. Chill, I'm not even getting into that one with you.
edited 30th May '18 12:39:53 PM by 43110
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I know that he was voted Yes. I was there, I am just giving my own arguments of why he dont count and see what everyone else think. I want to cut him, but we are a democracy, so I stated my arguments.
And yeah, He did not rape anyone...but he was totally fine with providing victims to a rapist. Which is still rape.
Yeah. I heard that the anime made him more sympathetic (helped by the fact that his brother was ERASED from the story)
Actually, providing a rapist with victims is still rape even if you arent doing the act yourself. The Killer is a rapist.
I proposed a man who caused the deaths of hundreds of persons who just wanted play a videogame, with most of them being teenagers. But, you know, Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil and providing someone with the means to doing it is still rape.
If a villain was forced to help a rapist in past, but he hated and tried to stop it. I can see it staying, even if said villain is trying to, dunno, nuke a entire city in the present.
edited 30th May '18 12:56:48 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
I'm...not really going to agree with that logic.
Goku Black
I have no idea what Kazuya mean by that either.
kazuya it kinda isnt, now contesting him on the grounds of being a child killer would be fine but in order to be a rapist you need to have raped somone yourself.
Dude I just told you that he wouldnt count as a rapist.
edited 30th May '18 1:07:39 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
If a villain was forced to commit or being complicit with rape in the past, I can see said villain being a legit Magnificent Bastard if its current actually-willing crimes arent of sexual nature (that is why I gave the nuking city example. Is horrible but not related to their forceful sex crimes).
Magnificent Bastard means both Magnificent and Bastard. Too much of the later tend to ruin the former.
Ok. Lets not call it rape. The Killer still was willingly complicit providing victims to a Serial Killer. I think that doing something like that is just too disgusting.
edited 31st May '18 6:27:38 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Foreign Troper
Alright, after two weeks of delay, my write-up for Supergirl is finally ready. Hope it's ok.
- Season 2's "Alex" gives us Rick Malverne. Despite only appearing as a villain in this particular episode, he leaves a huge impression behind. A former classmate of the Danvers sisters, he once bore witness to Kara surviving a horrible accident while saving people. This memory never left him, and after Supergirl publicly revealed herself to the world in National City years later, he was quickly to put together the pieces of evidence that Kara and Supergirl were in fact one and the same person. Finally seeing the opportunity to free his criminal father from prison, Malverne hatched a complex scheme by monitoring the two sisters and all of the people close to them for over a year. After finally feeling ready to execute his plan, he kidnaps his former childhood crush Alex and puts her in a glass cage (built in a location laced with lead) which slowly fills with water. He gives her fiance Maggie, Kara and the DEO the choice of freeing his dad within 36 hours or watching Alex drown. Even after Winn is able to deduce his identity and Supergirl apprehends him, Malverne remains calmly collected, showing Supergirl the life footage of Alex in her deadly trap, to emphasize how serious he is about all this. After failing to read his mind, J'onn then tries to fool him by shapeshifting into his father, but Rick is quick to discover the scam. Although his life feed is subsequently tracked, Malverine still isn't bothered, instead giving Kara the advice of not trying to go after the source. She ignores his warning, which causes the timer of Alex's trap to set forward to a mere 4 hours, putting her several steps closer to a watery death. Knowing that Kara would still be too much of a girl scout to meet his demands, Rick then emotionally manipulates Maggie into doing so, which he succeeds in. And even after his plan is ruined, as the only variable he didn't take into consideration was his father gaining a conscience and giving up the location of his trap, he doesn't lose his cool, instead he congratulates Alex for surviving and accepts his imprisonment without any kind of malice. In a world full of superpowered beings and people with highly advanced tech and far more ressources at their disposal, Rick Malverne came closer to killing one of the main characters and succeeding in his plans than anybody else, bringing a dark atmosphere to an otherwise lighthearted series, leaving the cast in utter shock and being a chilling example of how far the love for one's father can take you.
Thank you for changing the topic and please post in the drafts.
Uhhh... actually, while I still appreciate the topic change can you trim that by like... 60-70%, way, way too long, especially for a Villain of the Week.
edited 30th May '18 1:42:41 PM by 43110
I'm going to lean somewhat in Kazuya's direction here as "supplying a rapist with victims" and "committing rape yourself" are not distinctions I really care to draw.
I didn't offer a vote at the time but if the character came up now, I'd vote "no". I'd also suggest to everyone that the argument of "we already voted on this character" isn't as convincing in this case as it might otherwise be, because this thread has only been running a few weeks, and we're all still hashing out our standards. This isn't like the cases we've had in the CM Thread where someone dredges up a candidate two years after we made our votes.
Also, going to throw a "no" on HER because it doesn't sound like she quite meets all the criteria and the person doing the effort post themselves leans against. When in doubt, cut.
edited 30th May '18 1:16:30 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
There is one thing I do wish to point out on the killer there. That is when he was a child being, as I recall, coerced into assisting his brother. I think it's telling how he evolves later as a killer while having a completely different MO.
Alright, next Bond MB...
What's the work?
Goldeneye is the first Bond film to feature Pierce Brosnan as 007. The Cold War is over and Bond is pondering his place in the changing world, when the ghosts of his pass seek to catch up with him. 9 years ago, Bond infiltrated a soviet facility to destroy a chemical weapons cache with his best friend, 006...Alec Trevelyan. Things went wrong and the ranking officer captured Alec, executing him. James finished the mission and escaped. Now, in present day, Bond is tracking the elusive Janus Crime Syndicate in their plot to steal the codes to the powerful Goldeneye satellite....Bond finally manages to meet with Janus himself...and sees his greatest enemy is his former best friend: Alec Trevelyan himself.
Who is Alec Trevelyan?
Played by Sean Bean as one of the single greatest Bond villains ever put to screen. Long ago, a group of Lienz Cossacks, ruthless warriors in Russia, betrayed the Russians and defected to the British. The British would betray them and sent them back to Stalin, who promptly had them all shot. Only one family survived. The Cossack man and his wife killed themselves, leaving their orphaned young son, Alec, behind. Alec, in what he termed "one of life's little ironies" was taken in by the British who figured he was too young to remember...Alec became one of the best agents, a rival and equal to James himself. Together, the two would save the world, topple dictators, assist the peace process from the shadows...only to come back and see that the world had changed. Alec longed for revenge and an escape from his life as a Double-O. He faked his death with Colonel Ourumov, his supposed 'captor,' but secretly his co-conspirator and subordinate.
Only one thing went wrong: James, upon seeing Alec captured, dropped the timers for his bombs to three minutes instead of six. The explosion ended up scarring Alec's face, making him eventually take the name 'Janus'....Alec built an extensive syndicate and slowly converted others to his cause, worming his agents and assassins where they needed to be to convert or eliminate those in their path to steal access to the Goldeneye. It went off without a hitch. James and Alec face off and exchange one of the best banter-duels in the entire Bond franchise, as Alec scoffs off James' attempts to psychanalyze him, and even manages to really get to James. "I might as well ask if all those vodka martinis silence the screams of the men you've killed. Or if you find forgiveness in the arms of all those willing women for the dead ones you failed to protect." Bond is captured, tranquilized and left to die with Natalya, a Russian programmer who worked on the Goldeneye. They escape, but Alec anticipates this and has Ourumov murder a Russian officer and frame Bond. Alec's plans? Revenge and become fabulously rich. He's going to rob the Bank of England...and then use the Goldeneye to obliterate the financial records, shutting down the grid and pulling the plug on the entire digital empire of western civilization before disappearing with 'more money than god' on his own....he's also playing Ourumov who had no idea that Alec is a Cossack. In the resulting fight on board Alec's train, Alec gets the better of James and escapes, before telling him over a walkie-talkie that he left him 'six minutes' for the explosives. "Same six minutes you gave me. Least I could do for a friend." Cue Bond realizing "we have three minutes."
Bond manages to track Alec to Cuba where he nearly pulls off his plan. Natalya manages to screw over Alec's hacker, her old co-worker Boris, as James helps to sabotage the Goldeneye. Finally? He and Alec square off, hand to hand and Alec manages to overcome James until he's briefly distracted. James uses the chance to knock Alec off the roof they're on, but seemingly on instinct catches his foot. Alec looks up and gives James a grin, and a last sarcastic "for England, James?" before James icily responds "for me" and releases his former friend, sending him plummeting hundreds of feet...where he survives, only for the satellite to crash down on him moments later, burying him in a mountain of fiery debris.
Is he charismatic? Charming? Good at manipulation?
Alec played the British intelligence and government for decades, hiding his true intentions even on psych profiles, all while building up a plan on the side to screw them over in revenge. More than any other villain in the franchise, Scaramanga and Silva included, Alec is James' Evil Counterpart and dark mirror, his former best friend turned evil, who gets under his skin like nobody else save only Blofeld. Sean Bean plays Alec with exceptional charisma and charm, giving him an almost boyish, easygoing nature, who repeats his formerly friendly catchphrases to James with the same playful tone, that only rankle James more ("For England, James?" and "closing time, James! Last call!") More than that, his plans are excellent and nearly work, while remaining relatively grounded as far as Bond baddies go. And he utterly scorns James' attempt to analyze him and reduce him to a simple Freudian Excuse when James calls him 'mad little Alec.'
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He's a crime boss, a traitor, he wants to destroy Western civilization and raze the power of the British government to the ground, get rich and has no compunction committing murder or treason to do so. Nevertheless, Alec doesn't cross lines other Bond baddies do. When he has a clear interest in Natalya, he informs her she could even grow to like him, and kisses her, only for her to slap him angrily. Alec doesn't press her further on that front....which for Bond villains is almost gentlemanly (given the amount of them that are sexual deviants or sadists)....and it also differentiates him from his psychopathic Dragon, Xenia, who's a sexual sadist who literally gets aroused by murder. Alec treats everything he does with a whimsical, detached air and is a pretty good boss by Bond baddie standards. Ourumov is the only guy he's implied to be planning to betray (and he does tell Ourumov he's not, so it may be Bond's bluff), but everyone else he treats relatively fairly and doesn't drop anyone into a shark pit after screaming "THIS IS THE PRICE OF FAILURE!"
Also, he does say at one point that he did want to ask Bond to join his 'little scheme. But somehow I knew. 007's loyalty was always to the mission. Never to his friend."
Conclusion?
Dear me, yes.
edited 30th May '18 1:22:10 PM by Lightysnake
Goku Black
Edit: To travelyan. Still one of the best bond villains.
I too would like too know how being forced to do that well being a child somehow makes him totally complicit in what his brother does. He becomes a very different kind of evil so thatsnot really something that can be held against him.
New comic examples I found
- Thunderbolts
- Magnificent Bastard: Zemo, Moonstone.
- Shazam
- Magnificent Bastard: Mister Mind. Remember that this adorable little worm has successfully nuked a city through manipulation.
edited 30th May '18 1:27:37 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yea to Alec.
Alec's an easy "yes". Probably the most obvious keeper among the Bond baddies.
Mister Mind's a cut. He uses his telepathy to get what he wants, and his personality was sort of what we had in mind when we drafted up Smug Snake. Add his listing under Complete Monster and that's a no go.
Goku Black
Of shazam's enemies do you think any of the others could count.
Sorry about that I got into comics after the change so its the one Im more familair with.
edited 30th May '18 1:37:27 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The character's name is Captain Marvel, not Shazam (that's a recent and stupid change). And the answer to that is "no". Captain Marvel's bad guys have always kept a lot of their 40s vibe, so they're fairly black-and-white, cartoonish bad guys. You could make the case for Black Adam, but that would be in his capacity as an antihero with own ongoing plotlines, not as a Captain Marvel villain.
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Francisco
Watch me destroying my country