During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Traveler.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Mr. Traveler
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Traveler.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Someone mentioned Seymour? I'll say a little on him:
Yevon aren't really racist against the AL Bhed - it's religious discrimination, which is pretty much just as disqualifying. But Seymour himself doesn't care about that. Yevon's just a means to an end - the end being becoming Sin and destroying all life in Spira, believing death to be the only release from pain.
But he's a very slimy Smug Snake as well. His biggest DQ is when he murders the Ronson and then rubs it in Kimahri's face while giggling. He seems like a firm Hate Sink in his role as The Heavy and is there to contrast with Jecht, whom doesn't want to be Sin and is shown to be a very flawed yet ultimately good man. If anyone counts in FFX, it might be Yunalesca, but I think she has too much Offscreen Villainy. FFX-2 has Shuyin, but he's a few Pyreflies short of a Farplane.
And yes, I've still got Sephiroth reserved.
Actually I got a question but I'll make a new post for that.
Traveler.
OK, so my question is about Dirty Rotten Scoundrels - dunno if we talked about it yet. It's been over ten years since I've seen it so sorry for any mistakes (Oh and SPOILERS):
In short, Michael Caine and Steve Martin are con men competing to scam a young innocent lady. Martin seems to win and she seeks Caine for help, saying that he seduced her, stole her stuff and to add insult to injury she was a virgin. Caine helps her leave on a plane when he's confronted by Martin. Caine calls him out when Martin says when he was getting ready for the sex she initiated, she stole his stuff and ran away. She was scamming them the whole time, Caine thoroughly impressed. She returns at the end of the film with some new marks because of how much fun she had with them, suggesting a partnership - which leads to some funny credits moments where they suddenly have a silent argument over what the hell she's thinking.
So, the young lady seems a candidate for MB, but the thing about lying about sex got me thinking: Is that a DQ? One of the reasons we cut Amy Dunne was because of false rape accusations, and for good reason. Many of the reasons given were valid, my personal addition being that it cheapens real rape accusations, but this DRS example is certainly not a false rape accusation... but I am wondering if it skirts that line. For what it's worth, the film plays it not as something truly horrible but as something clever. And it's clear Martin's life wasn't going to be ruined by this lie. And it's playing to the "innocent young girl" character she created.
So... what do people think of this predicament?
TBH? I'd say no to being a DQ
to A. Traveler.
Granted with the reference to colonialism its implied the occupation will probably be a bit grim, but he's certainly a charming professional.
The Unknown Unknown
A. Traveler.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'd say that's a DQ as well for similar (but not exact) reasons to Amy.
EDIT: Actually, on second thought, how bad we talking, Polar? You say it skirts the line of being a false rape allegation, but context makes it mitigating.
Edited by erazor0707 on Apr 25th 2019 at 4:04:21 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
She says he seduced her and robbed her and that she was a virgin and uses it to garner Caine's character's sympathy, but he doesn't take any offense at all and is, in fact impressed. The work doesn't seem to want us to think she's awful, but cunning and clever enough to play two seasoned pros like a fiddle. Martin's character is a bit miffed, but again, it's not played as being something unforgivable.
It's hard to give more context since I think I've given as much as I can.
I'd say no to it being a disqualifier. Lying about being seduced is nowhere near the same level of heinousness as a false rape accusation. Her lie is that she had consensual sex. Amy's lie is that it was unconsensual sex.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I'll abstain a little bit but I might gonna side with Lighty and AK for this matter. This seems passable compared to the likes of "False Rape Accusation"
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
What is wrong about lying about being seduced anyway? If anything I'd say that is a pretty clever strategy.
The Unknown Unknown
Hmmmmmm, yeah, I'll go with the crowd on this one. I think you're good, Polar.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Amy was a cut because everything about her screams 'thoroughly unlikable'. I'm fine for this one.
Traveler
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I have to agree with everyone Polar. It's not disqualifying.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:01:33 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Shuyin doesn't count quite simply because his goal is not magnificent nor is he that much of a bastard. He's entirely motivated by love, and I don't think we have many (if any) examples based on motivated by love. I'd love to EP him just to make sure, but like Seymour, he has some distinct Smug Snake qualities to him while possessing Baralai.
I'm kinda glad people are starting to like Final Fantasy X-2, it's no masterpiece, but compared to some of the later games, I think it's a solid entry that is definitely underrated. Not that great of a story though.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
It dosent really matter how Sympathetic his Motives are, what does he do? Being motivated by love would Help qualification rather then hurt it.
Klavice, I think you kind of have a bit to high a standard on what's bastard enough. Like earlier When you claimed Lelouch wasn't bastard enough cause he was a WIE(Lelouch dosent count obviously but that's Right for the Wrong Reasons)
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Shuyin tries to take revenge against Spira by using a giant mech's cannon to wipe out all life on the planet and in the Den of Woe drives people to madness so they kill each other.
He easily passes the bastard test. Still don't think he counts for a number of reasons though.
Seems Dirty Rotten Scoundrels is worth a look, since people don't seem to think it's too bad a thing. Well, I or someone else will get around to it, I'm sure.
Considering I'm used to works that have people obliterate entire nations, colonies and kingdoms possibly even worlds then yes I might have a high idea of what a bastard is.
However I succeasfully proposed Fawful as well as two Ace Attorney villains both from Japan only titles, and they have a lesser scale but are still bastards. And I wasn't sure (at the time) that a WIE could count. I know that they can now, but still.
I'm thinking of giving a Warrior Cats villain a proposal. Haven't quite decided which one (likely Darktail) because he has absolutely no FR involved with him while other villains work for or are with Tigerstar and he is obviously way too much of a bastard despite having redewming qualities. But I'm not sure if Darky's too much of a bastard. Sol might be worth a look but as said before I'd need a second opinion on him. Seeing as Darktail is more recent I could probably make a more solid case for him than Sol.
I previously was against him, but now I think I may, MAY have a case for him.
Who is he? What has he done?
Mal, also known as the Malevolent One, is the Big Bad of season five, part one of Total Drama, Total Drama All Stars. He is an evil Split Personality of Mike. Prior to the series, he was incarcerated in the same juvenile prison as Duncan and was one of the most damgerous inmates at the time.
At some point, after juvie, Mike was able to seal Mal inside his subconscious. Years later, Mal makes his appearance in the series after Scott accidentally knocks Mike under his Manitoba Smith persona with a Shovel Strike. Upon Mal's reawakening , Mike loses his access to his personalities, as Mal enslaves them inside his mind.
For several episodes afterwards, Mal would briefly take over Mike's body forcing him to destroy several of the contestants property, while leaving the true culprit unknown. This led to Sierra going through Sanity Slippage from losing her one link to Cody, among other things.
He permanently takes over Mike's body in No One Eggspects the Spanish Opposition, when Mike in a desperate to access his personalities again drops a boulder over his head. This fails, and Mal chains Mike to the boulder and takes control of his body, impersonating him for the remainder of the season.
When the teams merge. During the boat race challenge, Mal sabotages the challenge by destroying all the remaining boats while taking off in the Boat of Losers, the most high quality vehicle among the choice.
When Zoey puts herself in danger of being eaten by pirahnas, rather than take the Stupid Evil option of leaving her to die, he saves her to keep his cover (although very reluctantly).
Finding Alejandro to be one of the biggest threats he forms an alliance with him while planning to backstab him the first chance he gets. During the episode's elimination ceremony Mal rigs the votes, in an attempt to eliminate Cameron. This fails however, as Chris declares it a non elimination challenge due to eliminating Duncan earlier for blowing up his cottage.
In the next episode Mal plants the votes for Cameron under Alejandro's pillow in an attempt to frame him for the earlier vote rigging. When Alejandro foils this attempt by swaping the evidence to Mike/Mal's bed. Mal plays some Xanatos Speed Chess by toying with Cameron's mind making him believe that everyone in the game, aside from him is plotting against him and to trust only him. convincing him that he is the only contestant he can trust.
Mal drives a wedge between Courtney and Scott's relationship by having Cameron kiss Courtney.
Cameron falls into the hole of a cave. Mal leaves him there lying that he is going to look for something to pull him up, when Mal is really looking to finish him off. Mal's earlier manipulatioms has led Cameron so insecure on who to trust that he doesn't even accept Alejandro's help when falling to his death.
In the next episode, Mal turns the cast against Alejandro by lying that Alejandro made Cameron kiss Courtney to spite Scott, as well as leaving Cameron dangling for his life. Ensuring Alejandro's elimination.
In the next episode, Mal gets Courtney eliminated by exposing her elimination chart to everyone, turning Courtney's closest allies (Gwen and Scott) against her.
In the next episode during the treasure hunt challemge, to ensure Zoey wins the challenge, knowing she would pick him to join her in the final two. He sabotages Gwen and Scott. Mal ruins the portrait of Chris that Gwen finds, forcing her to use bear poop to try to fix it, naturally this makes Chris automatically eliminate her. With Scott, Mal pretends to be on his side before sabotaging the traps they made and leaving him to be beaten by the mutant shark, Fang. Zoey later eliminates Scott and takes Mal to the finale with her.
In the season finale, upon Zoey finding out his true identity he drops his Mike persona. In the final challenge randomly selects Heather and Alejandro as his helpers. Performing quite well in the challenge, he nearly drowns Zoey before being pushed back into Mike's mind after Mike pushed the "reset button" and Mike erases Mal from his mind.
Is he intelligent? Can he think on his feet?
Yes. Contrary to his chaotic personality he comes up with a slew of schemes and gambits, and plays a pretty good game of Xanatos Speed Chess when they get foiled. He perfectly impersonates Mike's character and while there are a few Out Of Character Alerts, he almost always bounces back. He is competent. Perhaps even too competent, as there are one or two moments where he dips into Villain Sue territory such as him finding Courtney's chart with no explanation to where he found it, but aside from that he does go through setbacks.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Yes. He is definitely a bastard. Mal is pretty sadistic. He layed a cruel beating on Izzy, made several attempts to eliminate and/or kill Cameron before and after toying with his mind, tried to throw Heather to toxic waste, etc.
He is by far one of the more evil characters on the show. He's also kind of a dick as destroying the contestants things was his personal way of screwing with them.
That said there have beem quite a few really evil characters on this trope. Such as Grimmel and the few C Ms.
Any Villainous Breakdowns?
After he is defeated, he goes on a moderate VB, begging Mike to give him control over his body again but that is only after he was being erased and had no way out of the situation. It isn't as undigniifying of a VB as say, Bill Cipher.
Aside from that, unlike most characters in the show he has little to none undignified moments. His stay on Boney Island, with all the scary mutant animals populating it? The mutant animals flee in terror from him!
Verdict?
I like Mal but I do acknowledge that there are a few potential issues that I addressed and provided counterarguments for. I want him to count but I won't lose any sleep if he doesn't.
Edited by username2527 on Apr 26th 2019 at 12:39:08 PM
Found this on the Love to Hate page under video games.
"Pokémon Sun and Moon : Lusamine is loved due to being a Magnificent Bastard and quite cool as well as being extremely well-written while being hated because of vileness and being an abusive Evil Matriarch, to the point of being compared to Ragyo Kiryuin."
Should I cut it, since Lusamine most certainly does not qualify due to being too smug, insane, and especially not being a bastard for long in Ultra Sun/Moon?
Great EP on Mal but I have to go with my gut and vote ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Mal.
My reasons for this stands from these points
A) Mal is very sadistic committing petty things (such as breaking his fellow campers electronic For the Evulz) and was very gleeful at the prospect of Zoey getting eaten alive by piranhas and upset that he has to save her to not blow his cover
B) Much of his successes comes across as Villain Sue rather than anything he did on his own, such as relying on Zoey winning challenges for him and it isn't really hard to manipulate her whose probably the most gullible character in the entire show, while dumbing down many of the other contestants. Plus Mal manages to get Courtney's chart out of nowhere without any explanation to how he got it in the first place.
C) His last scene has him begging for his life before bursting of rage exclaiming that "IT'S MY TIME!!" before being erased from existence due to Mike pressing the reset button in his mine. Begging for your own life is a disqualifier, as the reason why Scott Shelby was cut from this trope because he was begging for his life, otherwise he would have been a keeper.
That's just my stance on Mal but, If anyone wants to vote differently that's fine.
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:14:19 AM
Mal.
Also saw Endgame today. It was a great conclusion to the MCU story arc. PM me about what I think of a potential villain being considered for this trope(please only do this after you've seen Endgame)
Edited by xie323 on Apr 26th 2019 at 5:03:42 AM
