During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The MILF Virus
So I have been enjoying the classic series Cat's Eye, and gotta say great series if you don't mind a good 80s anime. Now considering the premise of the series, a trio of beautiful sisters being infamous cat thieves called Cat's Eye who steal countless priceless art pieces, you'd think the trio are worth checking and we'll you got that right. Let's talk about first the eldest sister of the trio, Rui Kisaragi.
What's the setting?
Cat's Eye is a manga/anime from Tsukasa Hojo, creator of the City Hunter series, about the many heist and adventures of Cat's Eye, an infamous trio of cat burglars stealing precious art all around Japan. Actually the Kisaragi sisters, a trio of secretly wealthy sisters who runs the Cat's Eye cafe (real subtle), the group's main goal are to find their father, the missing German artist Michael Heintz, with their many heist being their way to reach out to him, having targeted his many different pieces of art for their heist.
With wealth, skills, and determination the trio are able to pull many of these daring robberies with ease and excitement, beating Toshio and the Anti-Cat's Eye squad, the many different crimanls who stolen their father's art pieces, rival thieves, and the different security place against them, there is a reason there are revered and feared by the people of Japan. And the first candidate we have is the oldest sister of the trio, Rui Kisaragi.
Who is Rui Kisaragi and what does she do?
The oldest of the trio, Rui is the group's de facto leader, being the primary planner for the group's many heist. Having been the one to spend the most time with her father when he was around, Rui was the motivated of the sisters to find her father with their heisting antics, being the one to come up with the idea herself, training herself and her siblings into being professional thieves. Level-headed, and mature, Rui is able to adapt any security to a successful robbery, whether it be a vault only capable of being open by the handprint of the owner or Toshio, to a snowy mountain in a massive party, to even a highly secured private yacht, taking advantage of unexpected things to overcome, such as a plan to trick the security into opening the vault for her disguise as a rescue team or using a traditional sleeding contest as cover. All the while Rui is more then happy to get in the action for a successful heist, such as seduction, disguises, using her influence as an elite for subtle coercion, and even taking part in dangerous stunts such as Russian roulette to get ahead.
By the start of the show, Rui's master planning has made the trio already famous, with the group having garnered a lot of their father's missing art pieces. Continuing their streak of heist, Rui also shows her own devious side when it came to hiding the group's identity such as collaborating a fake tale between herself and their main supplier, their uncle Sadatsugu Nagaishi, to get Toshio out of their trail when he notice the pattern of Heint'z art pieces being the main target, embarrasing him when they manage to fool him. All the while using her position as the mature one to be the sultry spy for many of the group's targets, which at one point did led to her being kidnap, but even she manage to overcome that by adapting in her prison to tell her sisters where she's being held. All this while having to plan out ways to defeat different members of a mysterious criminal conspiracy link to their father, other rival thieves who steal and tarnishes the Cat's Eye name, and corrupt law enforcers, while having to try keeping her sisters happy such as planning a scheme where Toshio looks good against Cat's Eye to maintain his job all for Hitomi's sake.
By the end of the manga and anime, Cat's Eye has nearly finish their goals with Rui even relinquishing her leader role to Hitomi once her skills to adapt made her a better leader, the group is about to nearly reach their goal. In the anime, the show has ended before reaching this conclusion, but in the manga the group finds out the reason their father left, it involves a precious statue with hidden secrets that many art collectors around the world would do anything to get, including murder, and with their skills hone and ready, Rui leads the group in recovering the statue and hide it away, letting their father finally see them since he no longer has to run away. With their mission complete, the trio retires Cat's Eye as they head to Los Angeles to begin a fresh start, with Toshio eventually following and later helping Hitomi after she suffered a mental condition ending with Toshio vowing to help Hitomi recover no matter how long it takes.
Is she Magnificent?
Absolutely, a master strategist and thief, Rui is the primary brains of Cat's Eye that made them an infamously popular trio of cat burglars, able to overcome any security measures that stands on the group's way with great thinking, and insight on how to use unexpected circumstances to make her heist successful. Add in her masterful use of seduction and her many talents to get ahead and you got one hell of first class thief.
Now there are a few times Rui does slip-up throughout the series requiring her sister to help her recover, like her aforementioned kidnapping and a few times their enemy gets the drop on her, but Rui is able to always help find a way to counter these, usually playing a role in planning or even outright single-handily defeating the opponent that one-up her. And considering how many episodes this series has and how many heist they pull, a few hiccups here and there doesn't really hold her back.
Too Much of a Bastard?
Rui may be a thief, but she's still pretty heroic considering she and her sisters do stop far worse criminals during their adventures, whether it be terrorist or corrupt politicians, and she does go out of her way to be a kind soul to those around her, even the police she ends up humiliating with her group's antics.
That said she is still a thief who does steal from innocent people to further her own agenda and she owns up to it, such as the episode where Ai is pissed as her siblings for a heist that cause her boyfriend's father job and putting a great burden on them, with Rui having to tell her that they've been doing that since the start. Yes they do steal from genuinely awful people, but they also target innocent people as well and she only really cares since it involves someone they know personally that's not Toshio, although she does return the stolen art piece later for Ai.
Final Verdict:
I say she's a damn underrated keeper among anime protagonist and the first of quite a number I got from this series.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
goth Moriarty, Zhayi and Rui
Goku Black
rui.
Carrot Clone
Rui
Let the horror EPs commence! I've got an interesting candidate from a classic 80s horror movie that I'll be curious to see what y'all think. And special thanks to Mir for giving me the idea to propose this guy.
What’s the Work
The Monster Squad is a cult classic movie released in 1987 from the minds of Shane Black and Fred Dekker.
When Dracula and his band of monsters arrive in a contemporary small town to acquire a magical amulet that can bring the world to ruin, it’s up to the Monster Squad, a ragtag gang of rowdy, mischievous kids to put a stop to them.
Who is He?
Count Dracula, the classic vampire himself, wants to get ahold of the amulet to grant him enough power to take over the world by plunging it into darkness.
What does he do?
Going into hibernation after Abraham van Helsing’s botched attempt to stop him, Dracula returns a century later to take over the world with his own squad of monsters.
Acquiring the crate Frankenstein’s monster’s resting in by sneaking onboard a cargo plane and tricking a co-pilot into opening the hatch, Dracula rounds up the Wolfman, the Mummy, and the Gill Man to revive Frankenstein’s monster. Posing as Alucard to track down Van Helsing’s diary’s location (as that can open up the portal to stop him), Dracula sends Frankenstein’s monster to take them from the kids so that nothing can stop him. Later finding the amulet on his own, Dracula turns three captive women into his vampire servants, and places several explosive traps around his lair knowing that the kids will come to retrieve the amulet.
Failing to kill the kids when they enter his base and steal the amulet from him (though he was super close to killing them when he had them cornered in his hallway), Dracula’s able to find their treehouse hideout and blow it up with dynamite, immediately killing Detective Spar with dynamite afterwards before making a getaway. When his monsters fail to acquire the amulet during the climactic showdown, Dracula tosses away several cops who try to stop him, undeterred in his goal to nab the amulet from the little Phoebe.
Threatening to kill Phoebe as he gives her a good scare (“Give me the amulet, you bitch!”), Dracula’s punched by the rogue Frankenstein’s monster and lands on a spiked fence. But that’s not the end of him. When the wormhole opens up, sucking all the monsters inside of it, Dracula grabs hold of Sean, hoping to take him with him into Limbo. But he’s foiled, and the day is saved.
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
Like most adaptations, Dracula combines classiness with badassery and horror, making for a pretty effective antagonist and one of the best depictions of the Count on film. Dracula often uses deception and other forms of trickery to get what he wants. Any setback Dracula has, like getting scarred on the cheek by garlic pizza, he’s able to recover from, ending the movie with his plan so close to completion.
The movie’s also a silly Goonies-style kid caper and dark tribute to Universal Horror, so Dracula’s thankfully not too evil, nor do his actions dissuade his natural charisma and undeterred attitude to acquire what he wants; he’s so dead set on acquiring that amulet that nothing will get in his way, from the police, to kids.
And yeah, Dracula ends the movie with his plans foiled and letting out a Big "NO!". But think about it. How would you react if your plans failed and you’re now trapped in a wormhole to Limbo for all eternity?
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Dracula’s a bad motherfucker. Not only does he plan to rule the world, he’s also willing to do some dirty shit like force the Wolfman’s human form to transform against his will, turn people into vampires, and attempt to kill kids.
But despite that, Dracula treats some members of his squad with genuine respect (while he doesn’t care about Wolfman’s human form, he very much respects his werewolf form as a helpful ally), and he’s not even the most evil version of the Count. He's what you want in an evil vampire, with the right amount of intelligence and fear to make him an imposing threat.
Verdict?
I think he keeps
Edited by therealjackieboy on Oct 7th 2022 at 9:26:15 AM
"It doesn't matter anymore. You win. It is Duck Season."
Popping in to give a yes to Drac! Whom Pheobe should give the amulet to so he doesn't have to break a bitch's neck ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Goku Black
Mosnter Squad Dracula.
Rui and Dracula!
to Dracula
Memories of first watching the Nostalgia Critic review of the movie nearly nine years ago—though have not seen the actual movie yet. Figured this version of Dracula would probably come through here sometime though, so yeah. Based on the EP, to Dracula.
Also, "Know Any Virgins?" Haha.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 7th 2022 at 10:53:24 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Luthor quote, House quote, Rui, and Dracula.
Anymore opinions on my quote suggestion?
Edited by Bullman on Oct 7th 2022 at 2:02:50 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The quote is great! I read it last night. Sorry about that.
to Rui and Dracula.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Manfred Von Karma. Even in a comedic song, he's just too much of a petty jerk to count. He's always been competent enough.
I had the thought that the protagonist from Spider and Web could be proposed, but since they're a Featureless Protagonist I'm unsure how much charm they have. (I guess by seeing how other characters react to them?)
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Woagh
to Dracula and Rui.
So has anyone called the new TMNT film yet? I've been getting into the franchise recently and I thought it could be fun.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Rui.
Dracula.
Rui, Drac.
The wifi here sucks
You know I dismissed Dracula a while a go since I thought his ending was too undignified but reading the EP, yes there. Also yes to the Reddington quote and Rui
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Edited by crazysamaritan on Oct 7th 2022 at 4:19:10 AM
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
While Bowser looks dope as fuck in that getup, no to the image.