During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Yao, and I agree Zurg is to pathetic to count. He's extremely broken and pitiful. A good comparison would be Mr Freeze (who doesn't count, at least the version I'm thinking of) vs Future Buzz/Zurg. Both are broken trying to reclaim the past but are essentially a more villainous Punch-Clock Villain, but they feel like Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds without much shown on their cunning beyond being relatively intelligent.
Out of curiosity, would Nabooru from Ocarina of Time the Gerudo Thief who is the sage of spirit be bad enough to count? I feel with the Gerudo being ruthless thieves maybe she has a shot?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Honestly though wouldn't being selfish HELP him when being this trope?
Edited by Klavice on Jul 3rd 2022 at 9:00:12 AM
Professor Gigachad
I wouldn't really call Zurg a Punch-Clock Villain or a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, he is too selfish for either trope.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Yao
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 3rd 2022 at 8:56:16 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I agree neither tropes apply (maybe WDOW but def not PCV)
First, why would him being selfish help him count, his selfishness undercuts his motives and makes his actions less reasonable. Second, my memory is a bit spotty but I recall most of the Gerudo's evil being either implicitly or explicitly laid at Ganondorf's feet not hers.
Melinda I know you were drafting up Clue Club. Are you okay if we work on that and Batman (1966) since that's now at seven this week?
Goku Black
Yao.
First for Tzi Ma?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
for Lord Joker, Gnaag, Haschwalth, Marshall, and Yao.
After careful consideration, I'm switching to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Zurg.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Yao
Abstain on Zurg
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
He/They
Actually there is a character approves as MB that I'm not sure really counts. The character is Silencer from Miraculous Ladybug. Having watched the episode, he doesn't really do anything that magnificent and even gets outplayed by Ladybug when she tricks him into letting her use her Lucky Charm ability. What do you all think?
to Yao
Hi everyone, this is my first EP, so i hope this will be ok. I also hope i did enough contributions to have the right to post it (with the new rule about it).
What's The Work?
The Atelier series is a serie of JRPG where the player play as an alchemist and live many adventures by creating object via alchemy or fighting monsters.
Atelier Sophie follows Sophie Neuenmuller who aspires to become an achemist like her deceased grandmother. One day she discover a book who appears to be alive. The book known as Plachta explains that she lost her memory. From there, Sophie will try to help Plachta to regain her memory.
Who is Luard? What Has He Done?
Luard is the Big Bad of Atelier Sophie, he was a close friend to Plachta and studied alchemy with her with the shared goal to use alchemy to help people. However one day, when he discover Ablation Alchemy, a type of alchemy easier to use than normal alchemy but at a big cost of causing damage to the environement, he decides to abuse it despite knowing the consequences, which caused Plachta to fight him and to split his souls in two individual, Meklet and Atomina. This also takes away from them the ability to do alchemy.
500 years later. After learning that Sophie tries to makes Plachta regains her memory, Meklet and Atomina decides to help her in hope that this would lead them to find the Cauldron of Knowledge, which is a Cauldron who can be use by anymone to do alchemy, in hope to regain their true form. After Sophie finished to help Plachta regain her memory and having learn the location of the cauldron, Meklet and Atomina decides to find it and to use it to regain their form as Luard. Luard will then continue to use Ablation Alchemy until he is stopped by Sophie and Plachta and split again as Meklet and Atomina.
In the DLC story, the two tries to find a way to practice alchemy again, and will succeed with Sophie's help.
In Atelier Lydie and Suelle, Meklet and Atomina became one again (by accident). Now known as Alt, he helped Lydie, Suelle and their party on their adventure and to reach their goals.
Is He Magnificent?
As Meklet and Atomina, he was able to pass for Sophie and Plachta's allies (with Plachta not remembering them due to her memory lost) and manipulated them by helping them to find the Cauldron of knowledge, which he then stole and used to regain his form and using Ablation Alchemy with it.
He is also a very powerful alchemist as seen when he fighted Sophie and Plachta when he used alchemy skills to fight them such as summon an other monster to fight them. And as Alt, when he fighted his past self in Etel Nepica, he said that he didn't think his past self was so weak, meaning by the time, he became far stronger.
In the sequels, he showed many times that he regrets his actions from before and is shown to be redeemed. He helped Lydie and Suelle to fight Falgior and the Remplir monsters.
Competion?
Most of the antagonists in Atelier are mindless, destructive monster who don't show any sign of intelligence. In the Mysterious quadrilogy, Luard is the only one to be shown to be clever. Elvira doesn't count as she is brainwashed when she serves as an antagonist.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much ?
He tried to use Ablation Alchemy despite knowing this could damage the environement, and when Sophie and Plachta tries to stop him, he tried to kill them (though i'm not sure if kill is right since when you lose, you go back to the workshop instead of dying).
However, he is not too much as he never used his Alchemy to do evil but only because it was the easiest path(even if he has deviate from his goals to help people). He also only fighted Sophie and Plachta because they were trying to stop him.
Futhermore as shown in the sequels, he felt very remorseful for what he has done and tried many times to be forgiven by Plachta.
Point to discuss.
While in the main story, he prouved that he was magnificent, there are somes cases in the sub-stories where he act outside of the character. An example is in Atelier Lydie and Suelle when he met Pamela. Unable to resist to her kindness and motherly nature, he will cry in her arms while telling his problems. However this kind of funny scenes happens with every characters and are meant to ba taken for laught so i don't think we can say he lost his magnificence as when he need to be serious, Luard is shown to be clever and useful to help the heroes (or going against them in Atelier Sophie).
Verdict ?
I'm not sure, but i think he has a chance, i let you decide on that.
I have an approved MB I think needs re-evaluation: Caster from Fate/stay night. There are two problems; that she's a misandrist, and that the route where she's at her most "Magnificent" is also the route in which Archer plays her like a fiddle.
I...don't really think she counts.
Edited by Iceaura39 on Jul 4th 2022 at 4:19:39 PM
It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.
I hate spoilers
Exactly how long was she being played? If it was just a case of Archer improvising, then she actually was in control for a time. Also, her misandry isn't particularly played up.
Even so, she still drove that entire route into its Darkest Hour by ridding Shirou of Saber, which forced Archer to adapt.
Edited by 227someguy on Jul 4th 2022 at 12:34:06 PM
Everyone look at my sandbox
No, his entire stint of being on her side was all part of his plan. He was using her, not the other way around like she was led to believe.
I would argue that even if he was forced to adapt, he did so by manipulating her, and did so thoroughly and successfully. It doesn't really erase anything.
Edited by Iceaura39 on Jul 4th 2022 at 8:59:53 AM
It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.
43, feelfree to work on Clue Club and Batman right now.
Incidentally, since I don’t always remember to check the thread when I don’t have anyone pending m, you can feel free to pm me if I don’t respond to future questions like that,
Luard.
Lies and Violence!
Grodd, Joker, Gnagg, Jugram, Marshall, Yao and Luard, abstaining on Zurg. From what I've heard I don't think he counts, but this feels like a weird case where I'd have to see the movie for myself.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Marshall, Yao and Luard.
Can I ask a question why is the Morbius (2022) example listed on the MagnificentBastard.Marvel Cinematic Universe page it's not at all part of the franchise beyond a cameo at the end? Unless I am missing something. It doesn't seem anymore connected than say Smallville to the Arrowverse. So I am okay with keeping there but am just curious if there was a discussion I missed or something like that.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 4th 2022 at 12:13:33 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
Since I'm not feeling well. I'm taking leave for a fee days. In the meantime let me leave these here.
- Nefarious villains of Sherlock Holmes: "Enquiry in Conduit Street" by David Marcum: Alfred Bassik appears to be one of the most prominent members of James Moriarty's criminal organisation but is secretly a mole working for MI-6 to undermine him. Bassik has been helping Moriarty with his criminal activities but also secretly feeding Sherlock Holmes information to defeat him under the alias of Porlock. Bassik sets Moriarty against his right-hand man Moran, afterwards helping to fool Moriarty himself and save some of his potential victims.
- Further Associates of Sherlock Holmes: "The Last Visitor" by Stephen Henry: Professor James Moriarty is once again depicted as the only man who can match Sherlock Holmes in brilliance and intellect. Moriarty recruits the art forger siblings Angelo and Lucrecia Lorenzoni by manipulating Angelo into becoming indebted to him. Moriarty than creates an identity for Angelo as a respectable art dealer in order to gain the trust of the art community. Angelo will then switch the real paintings for sale that are being sent through his gallery with clever fakes created by Lucrecia, and later reveal that they're fakes to the buyers of said paintings to force the sellers into debt and into the sway of Moriarty. Even after the siblings are killed by a reckless act of villainy, Moriarty patiently tails Sherlock in his investigation of the murders before skillfully disposing of the murderer after he's found the solution.
Doesnt Feige himself hate that verse and has gone out of his way to keep it disconnected from the MCU? Why is it on the page?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yeah he does from what I can tell.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 4th 2022 at 12:36:26 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I gotta apologize now— it's probably gonna be even longer till I discuss Three Hopes. I finally got off work but I'm laid out with a cold right now so it's gonna be even later. Sorry, guys.
Lies and Violence!
Moved Morbius to the appropriate page with 43's OK, and left a note ("For examples from Sony's Spider-Man Universe, see here"). Feels like something that should still be addressed considering all the multiverse shenaniganry.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 4th 2022 at 2:06:00 PM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Maybe make a page dedicated to non-MCU Marvel films? I know it's tossed around once or twice on the CM thread, but kept getting rejected for whatever reason.
For the record, here's the full list of non-MCU MBs for said page:
- Blade II: Prince Jared Nomak
- Morbius (2022): Michael Morbius
- Spider-Man 2: Otto Octavius
- X-Men Film Series:
- Magneto (both timelines)
- Mystique
- Cable
So, with seven that'd be the bare minimum for making a dedicated page for them. Not sure if the thread would be okay with that, but it could be one solution.
I'm of the opinion beyond cameos Sony's Spider-man is it's own separate thing. They do affect one another, and I wouldn't be opposed to them both being linked on the Marvel page (which is far as I can tell is already done), but I don't see them as under the same "umbrella".
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I mean wasn't that idea turned down on the CM thread? Or am I thinking of something else.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 4th 2022 at 1:35:46 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Michael & Toomes are technically a Team Up as he appears in Morbius, Toomes asks to basically make the Sinister Six and Michael agrees to help. That's the ONE connection between that movie and the MCU—much like Venom/Eddie appearing briefly in No Way Home is the one connection to the MCU. The Sony Spider-Verse movies are indeed their own thing otherwise.
Prowler from Into the Spider-Verse is an animated keeper and would probably go to said page too.
Probably over on CM the idea came up.
Should I clear the Zurg ones for Lightyear over on Actors, Directors and Played Both now?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 4th 2022 at 11:47:30 AM
Sure to Yao.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE