During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Paola, Sasuke, and Harrow.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Viola.
Cross-wired freak
to Sasuke and Harrow
Was trying desperately to catch up on Moon Knight by midnight. I'm only on the second episode though. Gonna excuse myself from here until I'm done.
Sorry to intrude. But I feel I should point out that several of these drafts, once approved, are simply copy-and-pasted into YMMV pages with no regard for spoiler tags. Events and revelations that should be spoilered are just left out in the open.
Edited by Bluecatcinema on May 18th 2022 at 6:42:22 AM
Poala, Sosuke, & Harrow
The MILF Virus
So after finishing my side in Umineko for a bit (there's a few I will probably put up at some point later), I think it's time to look at the latest game I finish, Wild ARMs 5, and take a look at a few candidates I got in mind. The first is the protagonist's idol turned false hero, Nightburn Aukland.
What is the setting?
Wild ARMs 5 is currently the last main title Wild Arms game, a desert punk JRPG series that follow themes of the wild west that was release in the Playstation and Playstation 2. Taking place in the planet of Filgaia, a new adventure awakens for our three main heroes, golem enthusiast and up and coming hunter Dean, gunslinger performer Rebecca, and the mysterious Avril, as they go through a coming of age story while dealing with the many mysteries and issues plaguing Filgaia this time, particularly the conflict between the highly advance race called the Veruni and humans.
One of the biggest inspiration for Dean to go in his adventure is his idol Nightburn, a renown Golem Hunter beloved by the humans for being one of the few people who were able to stand toe-to-toe with the Veruni, but as you can guess from me proposing him, Nightburn is not exactly the hero Dean thought of.
Who is Nightburn Aukland and what does he do?
Nightburn is consider an icon to the humans, a man who was able to stand by the Veruni as equals and as such, he is a massive influencer to many up and coming adventures ready to work for him as part of the Golem Hunting Guild. However as Dean unfortunately learn, the shiny appearance Nightburn shows to his people in his commercials and propoganda are all a facade, Nightburn is actually a figure-head in collaboration with the Veruni using his influence to get people to work for the elitist race. Dean finds this out the hard way when in an audition for Rebecca to become a star, he and his group end up in a trap where they are force to fight monsters for the entertainment of the Veruni viewers, with Nightburn even humiliating Dean in a one-on-one force loss battle.
Add in the harsh conditions they find out the Veruni had place the humans who went to try living with them, and Dean's group unfortunately see Nightburn as a fraud, little did they know that the rabbit hole gets deeper. Turns out there's a terrible disease that might lead to the Veruni's extinction and having loss his lover who was a Veruni to the illness plaguing them, Nightburn ultimately switched sides to the Veruni when initially trying to unite the two opposing races, what didn't help was Nightburn being expose to the human's worse side in the conflict being indifferent to the plight of the Veruni. Working with the Radical faction of the Veruni, he serve as the groups false idol to get more humans under their control, as part of their plan to save their race manipulating humans in furthering the Veruni's salvation.
When Dean and his group went to Nightburn's hometown, Honeysday, they learn more of Nightburn's backstory, but he's also the one in charge of the enslavement happening in Mt. Chug Chug where the young men are taken to serve the mines. Learning the dangerous conditions of the mines where the workers are in constant danger of being eaten by the monsters, the group confronts him in the center after he has activated his bombs meant to keep the workers in check if they tried to rebel. Battling the group and losing to Dean in a rematch, Nightburn reveals the truth. While what Nightburn did was horrible as a pawn for the Veruni, his actions were at least meant to quall the radicals who would just destroy the townspeople indiscriminately without the system and having loss all hope for the two races to come together. The immediate consequence is seen when after his set-up was dismantle, the Veruni radicals began using their golems to wipe humans carelessly.
When the mountain ends up caving in because of the bombs Nightburn used, Nightburn decides to redeem himself by setting up Dean's group to overcome the wall between the two race, handing him his badge to gain access to Veruni territory and learn the truth, before seemingly sacrificing himself to save Dean. However Nightburn actually manage to survive and return to save his town from the Radicals final plan using his skills to dismantle them, redeeming himself to the people and becoming a genuine hero humans thought he was especially Dean.
Is he Magnificent?
Yes, not only does Nightburn succeed in establishing a system that has manage to fool most of humanity as part of his allegiance with the Veruni, but maintain it for years that the populace believe it until his defeat from Dean. Hell it took a while for Dean and Chuck, two people who admite and knew Nightburn, to learn what he has been doing only because they couldn't believe's Nightburn's charismatic facade was a facade. Aside from that, Nightburn is full of charisma able to use his fame for his personal scheme and a complete badass that shows even while a fake hero he's still a very capable and dangerous fighter, being able to keep up with Dean and even defeat an entire army of Golems all by himself, showing that his fame as a renown fighter has actually weight.
And despite his sysem being pretty bad, it does at least manage to keep the Radical section of the Veruni in line, not destroying humanity outright in there desperation, showing that Nightburn despite being pro Veruni did at least manage to maintain some sort of safeguard for his race even though it was again to keep his manipulation which worked. Plus in the Veruni side gave them more resources and time to learn and figure out a way to save themselves from the disease, which ultimately they do in a way by the end of the game.
Finally when given the opportunity to make what he did wrong right, he did by setting up Dean's group to finish the battle he couldn't have, giving them his access card to learn the Veruni's true situation and even instructing how to solve the conflict by dismantling the wall between the two race so both sides can walk beside each other as equal, seemingly sacrificing himself to save Dean, and when he did survive shows his complete badassery by facing off against Volsung's army single-handily to redeem himself.
Too Much of a Bastard:
Here's the thing, Nightburn may be a bad man, he is helping the Veruni's in their pretty extreme attempts for survival which include throwing all of humanity under the boss... or under the mine in this instance, and Nightburn is a fraud using his charisma and influence to further the Veruni's agenda, but the situation Nightburn is not an easy one.
As Nightburn points out, while a lot of his actions are harsh, many of them were done to quall the Veruni radicals who would just destroy the towns and kill the people outright without the system he help establish through his fame, which we see once he seemingly gets killed. Also Nightburn does have reasons for his action, if Nightburn didn't try doing what he did, the Veruni would most certainly face extinction without the experiments and work labor they use the humans form because of the disease Filgaia created due to being outsiders. Nightburn had also personal reasons for it, that his Veruni lover suffered and died from the disease, and he didn't want that to be the fate of the entire Veruni race changing sides, which wasn't help by humans unwillingness to understand or help.
Add in that Nightburn is ultimately who sets Dean up to destroy the wall between the two, and it's clear deep down despite his machiavelic system, Nightburn just wanted to the best he can do in the situation he was and once Dean gave him the hope that things can be solve peacefully, he dedicated all of himself to it, even seemingly sacrificing himself to save Dean, although again he did survive.
Final Verdict:
I'd say he might not be as much as a straightforward compared to someone like Irving in the same series, he does seem to check all the boxes for him to be a keep. Got one more after him and it's someone more minor.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Hmmm, I'm fine for that one, I think. I have one now:
What's the work?
Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World is an incredible film based on hte Aubrey-Maturin books by the great Patrick O'Brin, set during the Napoleonic wars, and known for painstaking research and accuracy. Russell Crowe is Captain Aubrey, the daring captain of the HMS Surprise. Paul Bettany is his best friend, the shy doctor Maturin. The film has them sent to corner the French ship Acheron, and our candidate? Its captain.
Who is the Captain?
This'll require major spoilers, as it's a fun one, but the Acheron is a massive French war vessel out to wreck the British fleet and annihilate their forces...and the captain is damned good at it, a master of naval combat tht pushes the Surprise to its absolute limits. Sure enough, the Acheron ambushes the Surprise, but Aubrey is barely able to organize an escape.
Aubrey ultimately disguises the Surprise as a whaling ship to make the Acheron think they're helpless, and springs his own trap. Boarding the Acheron, he fights his way to the Captain, who is attended by a doctor, having died during the battle. The doctor gives Aubrey the captain's sword and Aubrey sends some of his men to sail the captured Acheron to safety...
And then duing a chat with Maturin, Maturin remarks that someone mentioned to him the Doctor of the Acheron had died months ago...prompting a "Oh SHIT" from a very annoyed Aubrey who realizes the captain had pulled the wool over his eyes and is now probably organizing a mutiny to seize control of the ship again. He orders the Surprise to catch up to the Acheron, disappointing Maturin who wanted to return to the Galapagos and catalog everything there.
Aubrey happily tells him if the birds there ca't fly, they won't be going anywhere and accepts the Captain's ruse with good humor, ending as the Surprise chases the Acheron with the best friends playing music together.
Mitigating issues?
For a guy with only one scene (in total disguise), he's got this down pat. The captain's direction of the Acheron is genius and he's a threat to the whole British empire. He's certainly a ruthelss bastard, being willing to wipe out civilian whaling vessels and naval vessels alike, and isn't eager to hgive quarter to his enemies. He's also incredibly intelligent, and may or may not have murdered the man he passes off as the captain.
But despite being caught by Aubrey's ruse, he immediately switches us when he knows the fight is done, conjures a plan to disguise himself and hit a mutiny...if not for Maturin overhearing a stray line of dialogue, he'd have pulled it off with zero hitches.
Conclusion?
and a yes.
Yes to Nighburn and the Captain.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Poala, Sosuke, Harrow, Nightburn, and the Captain.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Paola, Sasuke, Harrow, Nightburn and the Captain.
@Bluecatcinema, Welcome. As for that, I largely am left adding examples for works I don't necessarily know. If someone indicates something should be spoiler tagged I do so but otherwise I'm just going to post what I'm given and otherwise leave it to other tropers to add spoilers (Feel free if you'd like to do so to any currently listed as long as the actual text isn't altered).
Lies and Violence!
Sasuke, Harrow, Nightburn, and the Captain.
I hate spoilers
to Sasuke/Aizen. My God, is that my EP for Starrk? I really have gotten better at making EPs since then. I do regret some of my older ones (even the successful EPs are lackluster).
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Aye to Harrow, Nightburn, and the Captain.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That makes two of us. 💀 I kinda cringe when looking back at my Echoes EPs and writeups tbh.
Sasuke, Harrow, Nightburn, and the Captain.
I've got a potential candidate from the Alex Rider series.
What's the work?
Skeleton Key is the third book in the Alex Rider series by Anthony Horowitz. In this book, Alex is working for the CIA to investigate General Alexei Sarov, who has made a deal to obtain a nuclear bomb.
Who is Sarov and what has he done?
General Sarov was a commander in the Russian army, distinguishing himself in the Afghanistan campaign and rising to be second in command of the Red Army. However, his son was killed in battle, which devastated him. After the end of the Cold War, Sarov becomes disillusioned with the new regime, as the Russian president is corrupt and materialistic, while millions of Russian people live in poverty, dying of AIDS or starvation. Sarov retires to the island of Skeleton Key, while plotting to expose the Russian president's corruption, drive him from power, and lead Russia to become the dominant power in the world.
Sarov arranges a deal to buy a kilogram of uranium from the Salesman, a notorious gangster. The Salesman sends two mercenaries to make the delivery. Sarov gives them a large sum of money as agreed, but they say it's not enough and they blackmail him, demanding more. Sarov pretends to accept, then plays a simple trick as they try to take off. He turns off one set of runway lights, and while the plane is lost in the dark, he turns on a different set of lights, leading the plane off the runway into a marsh, where the mercenaries are eaten by gators.
Sarov then disposes of the Salesman, who he anticipates will seek vengeance on him, by having his second in command, Conrad, plant a bomb on his ship. Alex Rider and a pair of CIA agents are investigating Sarov, and try to infiltrate his villa through an underwater passage, but Sarov was aware of this entrance and installed a trap that kills the CIA agents. Alex is captured by Conrad, who tries to kill him by having him crushed in a sugar refinery, but when Sarov discovers this, he is appalled, and saves Alex's life.
The next day, Sarov apologizes to Alex for how Conrad treated him, and explains his past to him, saying that he admires Alex for his sense of duty to his country and sees him as a surrogate son. He tells Alex that he will be well-cared for and that he may go anywhere in the villa so long as he doesn't leave. Though Alex does try to escape, Sarov is still willing to forgive this and once more doesn't let Conrad kill him.
Sarov invites the Russian president to Skeleton Key for a vacation. He arranges a dinner for him at his villa, which he has wired with cameras, and stages an interview with him. Sarov asks him how he plans to address a minor crisis, and the president (who has been drinking) responds that he's on vacation and has no time to deal with the problem. At the dinner that night, Sarov gives a "complimentary" speech where he subtly mocks the president's incompetence, then has the president and his bodyguards drink a toast, but the vodka is drugged and knocks them out.
Sarov then travels to Murmansk on the president's private plane, planting his bomb in the midst of a fleet of radioactive submarines that have been left to decay. A nuclear explosion here will cause a worldwide catastrophe, and everyone will look to the Russian president for his response. Sarov will then release a doctored video of the interview he staged, showing the president responding with indifference when asked what he will do about the nuclear disaster. This will galvanize the people of Russia into overthrowing the president, and Sarov will then step up as their leader, while promising Alex that as his adopted son, he will also be one of the most powerful people in the world.
Alex manages to escape again, but is recaptured. Sarov reluctantly accepts that Alex will keep fighting him, so he reluctantly leaves him at Murmansk to be killed in the explosion. However, Alex breaks free and kills Conrad, managing to find the activation key to the bomb and disarm it. Sarov hears of the disturbance and returns, holding Alex at gunpoint and tells him to hand the key over, but Alex throws it into the water, telling Sarov that he'd rather be dead than have him as a father. Realizing that he's lost and that Alex will never accept him, Sarov calmly says good-bye to Alex, and shoots himself in the head.
Is he magnificent?
Sarov is cool and composed no matter what he's facing, treating his enemies with respect and often showing a dry, sardonic wit. He's very skilled at deception and manipulation to achieve his goals, and some of his victims have it coming, such as the Salesman, who is a murderous drug lord. He's also a clear Well-Intentioned Extremist as he believes his plan will restore Russia's standing in the world and save his people from poverty. He sees Alex as a Worthy Opponent and would prefer not to kill him, and even when his plan is foiled, he never loses his composure, calmly acknowledging that Alex has won and opting to end his life when he realizes that Alex would never join him.
Too much of a bastard?
He's undeniably ruthless as he plans to cause mass destruction to discredit the Russian presdent and take power, but believes it's the only way to save his country's people, as he points out millions of Russians are already dying horrible deaths, and expresses regret at needing to take innocent lives, seeing it as a necessary evil that he doesn't enjoy. He genuinely loved his son and respects Alex for his courage and patriotism, and is also said to have been A Father to His Men in wartime, as he didn't go to his son's funeral because he wouldn't abandon his men in battle even for a day. Compared to the other villains from the series, he's not that sadistic, has clear redeeming qualities, and his death is even played in a tragic light.
Conclusion?
I think he counts overall.
Edited by Javertshark13 on May 18th 2022 at 3:55:39 PM
Yes to Sasuke/Aizen, Harrow, Nightburn, Captain, and General Sarov.
Edited by Klavice on May 18th 2022 at 2:07:08 AM
Someone just put up Hazel's entry on RWBY. Was there any sort of write up for him or approval?
Lies and Violence!
He was approved here.
Sarov.
Alright, you know what? This guy has been mentioned, but never actually proposed so you know what? Screw it, imma do it, cuz the discussion for this man is LONG overdue. Here comes a mighty warrior from Dragon Ball!
Who's Piccolo and what does he do?
Piccolo Jr, best known as simply Piccolo, is the reincarnation of his father King Piccolo and a Namekian, a race of peaceful green-skinned people, though it wasn't really known at the start. In any case, after being spat out as an egg and hatched, Piccolo tried to carry on his old man's work under the brief title of Ma-Junior during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai (or World Tournament).
So in that tournament, he fights Krillin, Kami (who possessed a human at the time) and Goku in that order. While he doesn't do anything noteworthy against Krillin, it's when he's up against Kami that he first proved he's a worthy successor to King Piccolo: when Kami tries to seal him away, Piccolo reverses the technique, sealing him away instead. Then, he gobbles up the bottle Kami is imprisoned in to prevent the Z-Fighters from getting it back. Now, he fights Goku, who proves to be the better and stronger fighter throughout the battle, even managing to release Kami. But at the end, when it seems like Piccolo was defeated, he uses a single moment of distraction to blast Goku through his shoulder and disables the rest of his limbs, making sure not to forget his right arm like his dad did...then the plot kicks in and Goku somehow wins.
In the Saiyan Saga, Goku's older brother Raditz shows up, prompting Piccolo to team up with Goku to eliminate a threat to his world domination schemes. They succeed thanks to Piccolo's new technique Makankosappo (no, I'm not calling it anything else), but not without Goku's sacrifice or Gohan revealing a shocking amount of power. Realizing the boy's potential could be useful against the even stronger Vegeta and Nappa, Piccolo takes him and leaves him alone in a desert to hone his survival skills for half a year before teaching him how to fight in the other half. When Gohan turned into a giant ape and started rampaging, Piccolo pieces together that the moon was the trigger for the form and blows it up, turning him back to normal and depriving the Saiyans of a way to transform. And for good measure, he gets rid of his tail so his opponents can't use that weakness. Unfortunately, it still wasn't enough to keep everyone alive in the actual fight. Piccolo having grown a soft spot for Gohan, sacrifices his own life to protect him.
Since he spent much of his time dead in Namek Saga, Piccolo naturally doesn't get to do much aside from fusing with Nail to fight Freeza. He does, however, ask for Gohan and Krillin's energy to buy Goku enough time to form the Genki Dama. It didn't kill him, but points for trying.
Fast forward to the Androids Saga. Warned by Trunks about the androids' arrival, Piccolo and the Z-Fighters train for three years and face off against 19 and 20. After the former gets killed by a Super Saiyan Vegeta, 20 escapes and exploits his lack of ki to evade the heroes and eventually gets the drop on Piccolo to absorb his energy in hopes of getting strong enough to overcome the group. Only, Piccolo uses his telepathy to warn Gohan, who gets 20 off of him. Facing off against 20, Piccolo soon demonstrates to the android he only absorbed a small amount of his actual power and utterly crushes him...until Bulma stupidly shows up on the battlefield, providing 20 the distraction necessary to escape and activate 17 and 18.
Surviving a fight against them, Piccolo reluctantly goes to convince Kami to fuse with him in order to stand a chance. He doesn't succeed...until Cell shows up and absorbs multiple innocent people to power himself up. Strong with a new power, Piccolo goes to confront Cell and when he's down an arm, he tricks Cell into telling him who he is and what he plans to do. When he learns he's after 17 and 18, Piccolo regrows his arm and prepares to kill him...alas, Cell uses the Solar Flare and escapes. Soon after, Piccolo is confronted by 17...and gives us one of his best fights. In fact, he would've most definitely won with his Hellzone Grenade if 17 wasn't blessed with a Barrier technique. This fight, however, draws an even more powerful Cell to them, who brutally curb-stomps them both. Piccolo's role pretty much ends there.
Fast forward to the Boo Saga. When Goku leaves the Earth, Piccolo's entrusted with Goten and Trunks' training in preparation for Buu. The latter shows up as Super Buu on the lookout and demands the fight he was promised by Goku. Knowing the boys aren't ready to fight him, Piccolo does everything he can to buy as much time as he can. He reluctantly tells him to keep himself busy by killing other humans on Earth while he waits (which doesn't work cuz Super Buu instantly kills all humans except Hercules, Tien and Chiaotzu), exploits his friendship with Hercules by telling him Videl (his daughter) wants him to wait an hour and promptly tells Krillin to wake the kids up (knowing an hour on Earth = two weeks in the Time Chamber). Then, when Super Buu gets tired of waiting, Piccolo decides to get him to fight Gotenks inside the Time Chamber so that whether or not he can win, he could blow up the door leading to the dimension to lock themselves away and keep the Earth safe. He even makes sure to take him there going through a roundabout path to use any second he can take! Only reason it all fails is because Gotenks fucked around and Super Boo was strong enough to open a freaking door of his own to the Earth anyways (seriously, who could have predicted that?!)
And uh, since the canon of Super is subject to much debate and Freeza has even earned two effortposts and write-ups...that's pretty much it for Piccolo.
Mitigating issues?
You know what? Piccolo's consistently smart, ever since he first showed up.The sealing technique King Piccolo feared so much? Piccolo comes back with a counter to this technique and gobbles up the user. But the thing that sets him apart most from his father is that as strong a fighter he is, Piccolo shines most when faced against an overwhelming enemy, as he's willing to use any advantage he can possibly get to get the upper-hand, from critically injuring Goku to pulling both Xanatos Speed Chess and Xanatos Gambit while carrying overwhelming pressure from Buu and the fate of the Earth on his shoulders. This pragmatism has saved the lives of his friends more than once. For example, after Piccolo blew up the moon, Vegeta had to use up some of his power to create an artificial moon, which (among other things) played a significant part in his defeat. His smarts impressed Buu enough that he judged him worthy to be absorbed despite being extremely irrelevant in power!
Now, since I know it'll come up, addressing the Didn't Think This Through section of his article is necessary. While some points are fair, quite a few of them aren't. Blaming him for trying the tail trick on Nappa, for instance, is absurd because they're quite frankly outmatched in power and since Raditz did not train his tail, it was at least worth trying. The "toy excessively with Gero" part is simply not true, at least as far as the Manga goes. Piccolo quite quickly overwhelms him and slices his arm off. Then, when he got ready to finish him off, that's when Bulma showed up to screw everything up. Same thing with him fighting 17 and 18. These two were dead set on killing Goku, and threatened to kill Piccolo if he didn't tell him where he was. He literally had no choice, but to fight them, which had the unfortunate consequence to draw Cell. I could go on, but you get the point. Piccolo's not infaillible and he did occasionally screw up, but some entries are straight up blaming him for things that just weren't in his control.
With that being said, let's address the elephant in the room: leaving aside his first villainous appearance, he doesn't hesitate one second to kill Goku when he gave him the opportunity, kidnapped a 4-years-old boy, bluntly tells him his father died and threatens to kill him when he cries, flings him onto a rock to test his power, puts him through a Training from Hell for a year with the initial intent to remake him in his image, and angrily chews him out for failing to overcome his fear in his first real fight (But he's Gohan's real dad!). While he's firmly on the side of good by the time Namek Saga comes around, as shown by his decision to sacrifice the rest of humanity and trap himself, Goten and Trunks (two kids) inside a dimension forever with Psychopathic Manchild Super Boo, he's still prone to morally sketchy decisions if he believes it's necessary, even if he dislikes it.
But in the end? Piccolo just isn't too bad. By the time he trains Gohan, Kami indicates Raditz's soul isn't in limbo (an unique characteristic to Piccolo and his father) as a sign he has began to change. He sacrifices his own life to save his nemesis' son. Add to that his fusions with two good-hearted Namekians further affecting his personality for the better, and he grows to be a good (if distant) friend to the Z-Fighters famous for being a shining example of character development while still not being too nice or soft for this trope.
Verdict?
Like father, like son.
Edited by MiraiYuji on May 18th 2022 at 2:06:18 PM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Yes to Sarov and a well-deserved yes to Piccolo : Hellzone Grenade is probably one of my favorite Dragon Ball techniques.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
It's even got a cool name too! Honestly, I wonder if his Abridged version could count too. As if this man needed it, he gets Adaptational Intelligence by a not-so insignificant degree, his ruthlessness is amped up and he gets charisma boost by being made funny!
For the longest time I was so uncertain on if Piccolo counted as he was so rash, impulsive, and unhinged in DB. But in Z he grew out of that and became one of the most cunning minds in the series while still remaining morally ambiguous enough.
To Piccolo the Demon King and one of my two favorite DB characters
Nightburn, Captain, Sarov
Edited by Snowy66 on May 18th 2022 at 4:57:19 AM
mu
hell yeah to Piccolo
Edited by Demonlordbelial on May 18th 2022 at 8:09:24 AM
Can we have a pause on EPs. I think the current number is fine, but anymore is gonna be a bit overwhelming.
Paolo, Sosuke/Sasuke (who else would they choose as a Composite Character?), Harrow.
I feel like we've approved candidates with worse ends, Harrow's doesn't seem that humiliating.
Still reading the others.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 18th 2022 at 7:15:12 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Sasuke, Harrow, Nightburn, the Captain, Sarov, and Piccolo Jr.
Edited by G-Editor on May 18th 2022 at 1:58:00 AM
Yes to Sasuke and Harrow.