During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Eh, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Stane. Not for being too cruel or anything. I just personally find him to be pretty damn boring. That's just me though.
Self-Declared King of Everything
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It just bothers me, is all. It’s probably just an autism thing.
No to Vanko. I don’t think he’s interesting enough.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@HighfalutinQuelea: Mmmmm...maybe? I gotta go rewatch those scenes and see if he fits the bill. Plus I still need to get the EP for Nelson up; I'll shoot for that today now that I'm off work.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Creighton Duke and Obadiah Stane.
Critica I dislike when people casually criticize while making it no effort to help. If you’d like to assist that would be greatly appreciated but repeatedly vocalizing your frustration without taking action is just rude. Please stop.
Thanks ACW, compilation is very useful!
Edited by 43110 on May 14th 2022 at 1:54:46 PM
for Creighton Duke and Obadiah Stane.
Self-Declared King of Everything
I'm sorry, I'll stop now.
Regardless, my EP likely won't be ready until tomorrow.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
Thank you for understanding.
Tentative yes to Stane, although I feel like he loses some magnificence for not planning ahead on the possibility of Tony surviving the ambush.
The wifi here sucks
OK so I got another follow-up on a question from last weekend here regarding Need for Speed and whether or not the main character is bad enough/ I'd just like to gage how people feel before I make an EP
Also yes to Duke
Edited by papyru30 on May 14th 2022 at 2:30:48 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Lies and Violence!
What's the work?
Gee, I wonder. A Practical Guide to Evil again. Now that we're done with the side characters, let's start going through the main players.
Assuming you've been paying attention, you know the drill: tropes are manipulatable, standard character archetypes manifest as superpowered "Names," Callow good, Dread Empire bad, Dead King an asshole. But what about their neighbors?
The Principate of Procer is a Good-aligned feudal nation on the western half of the continent, consisting of a collection of principalities each ruled by their own prince or princess. ...Unfortunately, they're still a feudal nation, with all the ugly expansionist tendencies that come with. Procer has attempted to invade every other nation at some point, and their princes constantly wage war on each other in hopes of conniving their way into getting elected "First Prince" (not a Name), the ruler of Procer.
So why are they considered Good? Because they keep back the even worse horrors of the north. The drow warbands. The giant rat monsters of the Chain of Hunger. The Dead King's hordes. The Principate is sworn to serve as the lid on these evils, standing tall through hellfire and death to protect every other living thing from madness.
...Well, the northerners are sworn to protect the rest of the world. The rest of Procer is more concerned with, you know, petty wars and politics. But wait, Emerald! you may be asking. How can everybody else be focused only on bettering themselves instead of helping to prevent the apocalypse? To which I reply: "Have you been reading the news for the last couple of years?"
Who is Cordelia Hasenbach?
The young princess of a northern principate, Cordelia had the unfortunate luck of being born into a massive succession crisis consuming the rest of Procer, with everyone and their mother fighting to become First Prince. The north tries to stay out of it, but Cordelia soon notices something odd. No one down south is losing. Sure, princes will lose some military battles, but right when they're on the verge of bankruptcy they'll magically come across a loan to raise a new army and get right back into the fighting. A few years of digging and Cordelia finds evidence that the civil war is being funded by Dread Empress Malicia. She immediately warns everyone, but no one listens. They either don't believe her or are so engorged in blood feuds they don't care.
Now, what does she care? Let them kill each other. But then she thinks to the evils of the north. What will happen when one of the Horned Lords of old awakens to devour entire cities? When the drow finally rally around a single warlord to raid the surface lands? When the Dead King, always alert and always watching, decides to act on their frailty? When death comes for the rest of the world and finds the north in their way, who will stand with them to save humanity? And so Cordelia rallies her troops to salvage an empire out of the nation's ashes, no matter the cost. With the combined power of Cordelia's political genius; her infamous military commander uncle Klaus Papenheim; and her seer cousin Agnes, Cordelia quickly propels herself to foremost candidate for First Prince within only a few months, smashing every army in her way and either convincing the other princes to follow her or forcing them to drink the "Regal Kindness."
...But, of course, it's never that easy. Literally the minute she unifies the Principate, the other princes start scheming behind her back. Realizing she needs some big victory to properly unite them, Cordelia begins looking east, to the conquered Kingdom of Callow and the Empress who orchestrated their civil war. A Crusade against them would give her the support she needs, bringing in other Good nations for the holy purpose of "liberating" these lands while giving the princes conquered territories to divert attention away from usurping her.
Yadda yadda yadda, more politics, and eventually the Crusade is ready to go. Around this time, Callow has more or less broken off from the Dread Empire under the leadership of a girl named Catherine Foundling. Cordelia refuses her efforts to make peace — she's still a villain after all, and simply letting her keep the throne will have her opponents tearing her apart within seconds. As such she launches a two-pronged invasion: one army will be led into Callow by her uncle Klaus, while another will blow a hole in the mountains separating the two nations for the ambitious Princess Rozala Malanza to strike. This is where things start to backfire.
- Cat drops a lake on Rozala's army. Unfortunate, but the defeat can be used to drown her aspirations to usurp the throne.
- Klaus is outmaneuvered by the Black Knight, who escapes into Procer to raid and pillage. ...Okay, that's bad, but surely one of the heroes can handle it.
- The hero known as the Grey Pilgrim captures Black... by killing a town with a plague. She didn't mean like that! Fuck, and he can't be executed, the Dominion of Levant regard him as the second coming and their armies make up a good third of the Crusade. At least that's taken care of.
- The Knight Templar heroine, the Saint of Swords, has Cat declared Arch-heretic of the East, so that anyone who makes a deal with her will be considered godless — naturally handicapping negotiations. Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Goddamnit! What the fuck is next? Is the Dead King going to fucking invade?
- The Dead King invades.
With the end of the world at her doorstep, Cordelia decides to bite the bullet and do two things:
- Make peace with the lesser evil Cat, "Arch-heretic" be damned.
- Dredge up the corpse of an angel of Judgement, to be converted into a last-ditch weapon to kill all sinners (or unholy, undead lich kings) in the immediate vicinity.
Oh, and a fucking coup happens immediately after she declares peace talks. Wonderful. This is where Cordelia starts to get her groove back, utterly outsmarting them by escaping the capitol building, then doubling back to wait the coup out in the senate room with a bunch of loyal guards. When the coup masterminds finally figure out where she is, she tells them to get on with their farce of an impeachment trial at sword point, completely dismantling their arguments with facts and logic until the hero Hanno the White Knight can get the city under control.
Btw, this was all arranged by the eldritch monstrosity known as the Wandering Bard, who is able to directly influence Names and wanted to give Cordelia one so she could be manipulated into activating the angel corpse — the effects of which the Bard could amplify to genocide the continent. Agnes influenced events so Hanno would interrupt right before Cordelia could take her Name, halting the Bard in her tracks. Keep that in mind.
Anyway, peace talks: Cordelia swallows her pride and gets on her knees to beg Cat for forgiveness for all the crap she brought down on Callow. The two formally join in alliance and over the next two years bring war to the dead, Cat and Hanno on the frontlines while Cordelia expertly handles the political stuff giving them trouble — when dealing with corrupt bankers, Cordy has Cat torment their negotiator swith sadistic dreams of their armies raping and pillaging their city to pressure them into providing good deals. Another coup pops up but she gets ahead of it, using a few well-timed assassination attempts on herself to sway public opinion and arranging for the mastermind to arrive at the senate immediately after Cordy's finished tricking everyone into voting to execute them for high treason.
Unfortunately, just because she's cooperative doesn't mean she isn't problematic. Cordy and Hanno get into a massive Conflict Ball over who gets to lead the heroes — skipping over that for space, long story short Cat violently knocks some sense into them and they realize they both have too major flaws to lead, ceding their claims to that role to Cat — and she also insists on keeping the angel corpse. They know what the Bard wants with it now, but her ability to influence the blast radius appears to have been damaged, so Cordy's holding onto it as a nuclear option. If worse comes to worse, the Dead King beats them and the Bard can still influence the corpse, then better some poor sailor in the future comes across an island completely devoid of anything rather than one crawling with the dead.
Agnes dies before the siege of the lich's capital, leaving Cordy a letter to be opened at "the very end." Only one sentence that Cordy may or may not even get the chance to read, something too insignificant to attract the Bard's omniscient attention. Yadda yadda yadda, more fighting, and as the dead swarm the encampment the angel corpse is being held at, Cordelia readies herself to kill everything on the continent and save the rest of the world from the lich's legions... and opens the letter. Long story short, Agnes' words cause an epiphany in Cordelia, who realizes damning everyone else all for some arbitrary "duty" is utterly heartless and destroys the corpse, trusting her friends to see their survival through. The Dead King is slain by Cat, the Bard — after a few more backup plans — is foiled, and there's no need to genocide everyone to stop some greater evil. Cordy survives, and steps down as First Prince in favor of Rozala to act as a major international negotiator.
In case you can't tell, I skipped over a lot in that summary. Looking back now that I've trimmed it down to the bare bones of her character arc, I'm realizing I've cut a lot of her more impressive gambits. Whoops. Pretty sure I've still done a good job establishing she's smart, so...
Mitigating factors?
I'd be lying if I said Cordelia never fucks up. The entire Crusade is organized to put Callow through another annexation right after they got out from under Praes' thumb, all for the sake of petty politics; her conflict with Hanno is motivated just as much by pride as genuine concern for his inability to lead; and her unflinching refusal to let the Dead King win puts the entire continent in just as much danger as the lich.
That said? I'm willing to give a tremendous amount of slack. The sheer amount of bullshit she goes through to keep her ungrateful subjects alive is absolutely harrowing, but she carries on with not an ounce of regret and constantly outsmarts their attempts at betrayal. Her biggest failures are due to her military commanders fucking up or factors completely out of her control — the Saint of Swords being literally the worst; an eldritch, omniscient, perpetually drunk, body-hopping monstrosity deciding she wants to kill everyone one day; etc.
And just because she's "Good" does not mean she's "good." Cordelia is utterly ruthless, having climbed to the throne through a brutal cold war with Malicia's agents, and she wasn't afraid of forcing innocent civilians into committing assassinations by threatening their loved ones. In normal times, anyone who wanted to be First Prince would have to climb over piles of corpses. In times of war? Cordelia climbed mountains.
Verdict?
Fuck. Yes. BTW, Rozala's a badass who immediately puts aside her petty ambitions when the dead invade and leads the charge against them while pregnant, but doesn't have Cordy's impressive gambits and faces two serious defeats at Cat's hands that she never gets to make up for.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Getting this down(Thanks again to star for the Help).
[[NobleDemon Hazel Rainart]] is a ruthless yet honorable member of [[Characters/RWBYSalemsFaction Salem's inner circle]]. In his youth, Hazel lost his sister Gretchen in a training accident before he was confronted by [[Characters/RWBYSalem Salem]], who revealed her immortality and convinced Hazel that Ozpin's war with Salem and the deaths caused were for nothing. Joining her, Hazel desired to both assist Salem in beating Oz and [[WellIntentionedExtremist build a new world order]] free of Kingdoms or Academies. Hazel utilizes both his fighting skill and takes advantage of his [[FeelsNoPain pain-numbing Semblance]] to inject Dust in himself to gain far more power and mastered several Dust techniques. After Salem deploys him and Tyrian Callows to Mistral, the two are able to kill Huntsmen across the continent; he later assists with trapping the heroes in Haven Academy. During Salem's invasion of Solitas, after Hazel is told of Salem's true apocalyptic plans and the password to the Relic of Knowledge, he has Oscar use the password as a way to both verify it is not a trap and that Oscar was telling the truth without even using the Relic. He later fights Salem to give Oscar and his allies time to escape, finally restraining Salem and lighting them both ablaze, weakening her enough for Oscar to use the power of Ozpin's Cane, [[HeroicSacrifice sacrificing himself]] to buy the heroes time and take Salem out of commission.
The First man
What's up with those links?
It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.
Yes to Cordelia.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I cannot edit so I have it unwrapped to make it easier for whoever adds it for me
Cordelia `
Yes to Cordelia.
Showtime!
to Cordelia
Yes to Cordelia.
Gotta love Jaws!
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Aye to Cordelia.
Found This in To My Death I Fight:
- Ragyo Kiryuin vs Sosuke Aizen & Satsuki Kiryuin. Ragyo Kiryuin wins however she seriously underestimates her daughter and the traitorous Shinigami Captain multiple times. Aizen trolls the HELL out of her and pulls out all the stops (Kyoka Suigetsu, Mastery of Shinigami Arts (Hadou 90 and 99), the Hogyoku (this last one really angers Ragyo for the corruption of the Life Fibers from the OLF) and flawless teamwork with Satsuki.) Ragyo really had to earn her victory.
I've recently finished reading the fanfic. Aizen counts (I think I can make a case for Satsuki as well), I'll handle him at the same time as my first filler Bleach EP.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 14th 2022 at 5:16:01 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
for Cordelia.
Cordelia.
Cordelia.
Cordelia
I think Camila has enough Yays to be confirmed; is her writeup done now? I'm like a day away from my army enlistment.
FYI, I tweaked Film!Mystique's entry, so it starts the same as Magneto's ([[CharacterPage Character]], real name [[CharacterPothole name]]).
And here's all the sandboxes that need to be swapped (though the superfluous quote and video game pages should be cutlisted):
Of the two quote pages (Magnificent Bastard Quotes & Quotes Magnificent Bastard), one needs to be swapped and the other cutlisted.
It looks like Magnificent Bastard Video Games J To Z can be cutlisted as well, since A-L and M-Z seem to be the correct pages.
Edited by ACW on May 14th 2022 at 11:55:23 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts