During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Thailog.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
To User: Yeah, is so weird having a minor villain in a series where all villains do have ridiculously complex plans.
Also, I got help to to corrent my grammar in the Get Help With English thread. Now this is fine?.
- Devil Y Devil by Yuuki Miyoshi: Shiva Garland is one of the strongest demons in Hell. Working for a demon what he believes is Satan, Shiva is sent to kill his best friend Sword. Sending demons of different moralities to secretly test him, Shiva's intent is to be defeated by Sword to give him a chance to defeat Satan. Killing one demon that was going to kill Sword, Shiva puts a lethal curse in his human host with the intention of forcing him to become stronger and kill him. Defeated by Sword, Shiva reveals that he's working with a rebellion against the Demon King and is put into a coma, awakening to stop the omnicidal Shadow of Satan, sacrificing his life to save all of existence. A honorable Blood Knight willing to risk the lives of humans to ensure a victory for his best friend, Shiva Garland was as powerful as he was intelligent.
Also, I don't see Kurokawa in the list. I did post his entry a long time ago and no one mentioned his entry. What happened?
- Manhole: Hiroshi Kurokawa is a doctor whose life was ruined by his granddaughter's traumatizing rape. To avenge himself upon the rapist, Kurokawa visits an African tribe to discover the secret behind the peaceful One-Eyed people. Discovering the filarias, worms that infect human brains and force them to control their emotions and lose an eye or die in agony. Testing them on the rapist that ruined his life and upon a violent unemployed man that beat his elderly parents, Hiroshi plans to use the filaria by inserting samples of them inside domestic animals and waiting until summer to let the mosquitoes share it with the rest of Japan, with the intention of creating a world without violence. Stopped thanks to lucky accidents and the recklessness of The Heroine Nao Inoue, Kurosawa manages to control even his own death. Driven only by his goal, Hiroshi is infected by the same worm that he wanted to spread and is a true believer in his own cause.
If we forgot him, then anyway, here is his entry with better grammer if is needed.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 20th 2018 at 5:18:55 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Couple things:
- For Shiva: Should be "Shiva's intent";
- For Kurokawa: "An African tribe", also at one point you capitalize the name of the worm and at another you don't. Just use whichever way the manga does it and be consistent.
As for why Kurokawa isn't listed, maybe you posted it when the grammar wasn't up to snuff and I forgot to add it back in?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
At a glance, those were the only issues I spotted, so provided you fixed those, adding should be fine
Edited by 43110 on Nov 20th 2018 at 3:57:15 PM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Oh well. I add them to the drafts then, right?
Watch me destroying my country
To Geese and Thailog
And a REPPUKEN (yes) for Geese and Thailog.
BTW where did Vortex go? He should be under Keyes as well as Spy/Yew and Damon Gant (who should be at the top).
Edited by Klavice on Nov 20th 2018 at 1:20:05 AM
Apparently he wasn't put on the drafts for some reason. I went ahead and plopped him there.
Yes to Thailog.
Hey, it ain't a problem captain. Sometimes people forget to put stuff there and I usually try and grab the stragglers for you.
Edited by DocSharp on Nov 20th 2018 at 1:49:10 AM
I don't add stuff to the drafts, that is on you. I'm willing to take what's there and periodically request it go up on the locked pages and submit to YMMV but—at the risk of sounding aggressive—obviously I'm going to miss entries here and there, bear with me.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Appreciated, pal 
No worries, tbh I didn't actually get a chance to look at him but if you're confident in your grammar and flow, I trust you, man.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 20th 2018 at 5:10:35 AM
Sorry man, would've put Vortex on the drafts but I thought you wanted to modify it or something. It's all good. Guess I was thinking Seto.
Geese and Thailog.
Alright, it's time for GLaDOS from the Portal games. Note that this will be based on the stories confirmed canon, including the first game, both the single player and coop modes of the second game, and the Lab Rat comic.
Who is GLaDOS?
The Genetic Lifeform and Disc Operating System is an AI created by the company Aperture Science. Now Aperture Science is all about creating equipment for the sake of science and then testing it (it's unknown if the equipment is sold at all). Cave Johnson, the CEO, was a nut job whose lack of common sense at first gave headway to the company before leading to its downfall. As he was dying of moon rock poisoning, he initially planned on uploading his own mind into the computer. However, he died before that dream could be realized, and on his posthumous instructions, had his assistant Caroline uploaded against her own will.
This proved to be a mistake. GLaDOS, having no memory of her life as Caroline, immediately turned on the scientists, flooding the facility with a deadly neurotoxin before having a morality core attached to make her stop. Taking control of a portion of Aperture (which I should point out is deep underground), she began to devote the rest of her time to continuing Aperture's scientific research and experimentation for the sake of it.
However, a scientist named Doug Rattmann survived the initial onslaught, and secretly set that the first human to experimented on would be a woman named Chell (who is the player). Chell was given a portal gun and proceed through tests involving the portal gun and other objects. GLaDOS faked merely being an emotionless computer and even promised cake, but Rattmann left numerous warnings, including the famous one that I won't even bother to quote. GLaDOS gave Chell a Companion Cube for one test, and then forced her to incinerate it at the end (the sequel reveals that they are sentient).
At the end of the tests, GLaDOS tried to kill Chell by dropping her into an incinerator. However, Chell escaped and survived the other attempts on her life, making her way to GLaDOS's chamber. The AI attempted to deploy a "surprise", however, her Morality Core fell off, and with neither of them knowing what it was, Chell threw it into the incinerator. With the core gone, GLaDOS now started to gleefully fill the room with neurotoxin. But with the rocket turret stuck on, Chell used it to shoot off other personality cores and incinirating, apparently killing GLaDOS before passing out and being put back into stasis.
But as the end credits revealed, GLaDOS was delighted by the results anyway, feeling happiness for Chell's success, but anger for her own death.
Years later in the sequel, Chell was woken up by Wheatley, and the two of them attempted to escape the facility. However, Wheatley accidentally reactivated GLaDOS (should be noted that he is quite stupid). Revived and noticing the presence of her nemesis, GLaDOS decided to put behind any desire of revenge behind her. For Science!. You Monster!. Crushing Wheatley, GLaDOS sent Chell to retrieve a dual portal device before putting her through more tests. Throughout, GLaDOS successfully repaired the facility while making passive aggressive snipes as Wheatley, who survived, desperately attempted to reestablish contact.
Eventually, Wheatley managed to break Chell out, but did so in such a dumb way (really, a fake American accent is "beyond her range of hearing"?) that GLaDOS catches on before it even starts, and tries to stop them. The pair escaped, and screwed with the turret supply line (changed the accepted template to crappy malfunctioning turrets) and neurotoxin chamber. Heading off to confront GLaDOS, Chell (either purposefully or actually) fell for an extremely obvious trap ( an emergency GLaDOS shutdown and cake dispenser). After lampshading how dumb it was to fall for that trap, the AI attempted to kill the human with turrets, and when that didn't work attempted to use neurotoxin.
However, for unknown reasons, GLaDOS's main core was regarded as corrupt by the mainframe, allowing Chell and Wheatley to initiate a core swap to plug Wheatley into the mainframe. GLaDOS initiated a stalemate, which Chell then resolved, unplugging GLaDOS from the mainframe while Wheatley was plugged in. With this, Wheatley almost allowed Chell to leave before quickly going mad with power, claiming credit for everything, which GLaDOS called out as bullshit, since Chell did everything. In response, Wheatley turned GLaDOS into a potato battery. GLaDOS then realized Wheatley's true nature as a personality core purposefully created to be a moron, meant to make GLaDOS more stupid, which led to Wheately accidently sending both her and Chell down to the bowls of Aperture.
After a talk on the long fall down, GLaDOS was snatched up by a bird, which then proceeded to try to eat her. After Chell rescued her, GLaDOS made a deal: in return for helping the AI take back Aperture and stop Wheatley from blowing up the whole place out of sheer stupidity, GLaDOS would allow Chell to leave. Making their way through the old Aperture testing grounds, GLaDOS realized that she recognized the voice recordings of Cave Johnson and especially Caroline. Though confused and scared for most of it, GLaDOS reinvigorated by Cave Johnson's batshit insane lemon rant, .
So the two made it back to Aperture Wheatley Science, where it becomes clear that Wheatley is utterly terrible at running the facility, including stealing GLaDOS's own tests and ignoring the imminent destruction of the facility by telling the announcement to shut up. GLaDOS attempted to kill Wheatley with a paradox (and then not thinking about it), but Wheatley proved too stupid for even that to work. Regardless, GLaDOS managed to make fun of Wheatley every chance she got.
However, Wheatley managed to lure them into a rather clever trap (considering that Wheatley was created specifically to be a dumbass) and throw them into a death trap with spiky plates. Of course, he started to monologue instead of killing them, allowing Chell and GLaDOS to escape and flee from his wrath. Running through his terrible death traps and witnessing the imminent destruction of the facility, GLaDOS recognized Caroline's voice as her own as she and Chell worked their way toward Wheatley himself.
GLaDOS came up with a plan for Chell to distract Wheatley in the battle while would bring down corrupted personality cores to attach to him. Wheatley claimed to have taken notes on GLaDOS's original battle with Chell, and in trying to not make the same mistakes ended making even worse mistakes as the facility exploded around them. GLaDOS's plan actually went smoothly, and with three personality cores attached, Wheatley was considered corrupt enough for a core transfer. With Wheatley creating another stalemate, Chell attempted to resolve it, but Wheatley booby trapped the button. With everything about to go to hell and the ceiling collapsing, Chell shot a portal to the moon, with the vacuum sucking up both Chell and Wheatley (and the Space Core) out into space. This allowed GLaDOS to take back the facility, knock Wheatley into space forever, and save Chell.
GlaDOS now fully recognized Caroline in herself, and proceed to delete that part to focus purely on testing. Deciding that killing Chell was too difficult, GLaDOS decided to let her go, but not before treating her to a turret opera (literally, the turrets were singing). Chell left Aperture behind forever, along with the Companion Cube that was revealed to have survived it's apparent incineration.
With Chell gone, GLaDOS turned her attention to the Cooperative Testing Initiative. GLaDOS used the two robots Atlas and P-body in tests while spitting her classic sarcasm. But at the same time, she began using them to peform tasks that involved stepping outside of her bounds on the facility to steal data and files, so she could fully take over the whole facility. However, she noticed that the two robots were acting more and more human like, which annoyed her. She tried to make them more competive against each other, but to no avail.
After completing a full takeover of Aperture, she sent Atlas and P-body on one finally mission into the bowls of Aperture. There, they were to unveil a vault full of human test subjects so that she could use them in tests. Since the vault was anti-robot, the two robots used the human gestures that they learned to open it up. GLaDOS congratulated them on their accomplishment, before putting them away to focus on the new human test subjects.
Then the DLC came out. Unfortunately, a mysterious hacker started screwing with the facility, and GLaDOS killed all of the test subjects relatively quickly in trying to train them to be killers (since they aren’t robots nor as stubborn as Chell). The AI brought back Atlas and P-body a week later, and at first attempt to save face (claiming ten thousand years had passed) before admitting that there major problems before attempting to train them to be killers. GLaDOS sent the pair to confront the hacker in the prototype chassis, where it was revealed that the hacker...was the bird from earlier, nesting on the keyboard and randomly pecking at keys. Of course, GLaDOS panicked anyway and attempted to abort the mission before the two robots scared the bird off. She congratulated the pair before noticing the eggs, and at first panicked again before getting a better idea. As of now, newly hatched birds are being raised by GLaDOS to be killers. Only time will tell if that actually works.
Is she charismatic? Charming? Thinks on her feet?
Her passive aggressive insults and sarcasm actually make her more charismatic, believe it or not. Her manner of speech shows intelligence while also showing a whole lot of humor. There is a reason why GLaDOS is so popular, as she has so many great one liners. She’s rarely blunt, but makes sure that you know what she means, and does it in such a hilarious way that makes her stand out. Even then, she never goes too far into the insults, and never breaks down in anger (though out of confusion and fear, yes, though she recovers). Plus, she actually might like Chell.
As for intelligence, she shows herself to be pretty smart a lot of the time. It might not be terribly evident on paper, but think about this: she took control of the facility, set up a backup system in case of her death, repair the place twice, regain control of the facility after losing it, take control over the parts of the building outside of her control, and amuse herself all the while. Not only that, she stands out very much so next to Cave Johnson, whose insanity nearly destoryed the company, and Wheatley, whose idiocy nearly killed everyone. GLaDOS is the most competent character in these games besides Chell, and ends the series on top and still in control.
Is she a bastard? Too much?
She killed almost all of the scientists that created her and then some, and left everyone else in stasis for her to test on. In the DLC, she does not care about causing the deaths of hundreds besides the fact that it’s inconvenient for her. But there is no twisting the knife with her aside from her constant passive aggression. There are not really any points that one could say “what a dick move”. Aside from the whole thing with the Companion Cube. And even then, it wasn’t destroyed. After all, she’s not in it for evil, but rather For Science!. You Monster!.
Verdict?
for me personally. What do you guys think?
Thailog and Glados
Hmmmm. I was a bit skeptical at first, but I think I'm okay with adding GLaDOS.
Personally I think GLaDOS is kinda unhinged for my tastes. I mean she murdered the Companion Cube in cold blood or rather played with your emotions, and shows some sadism during the first game. I haven't played or seen much of Portal 2 so I can't say it's gone by that point.
But if it's gone by Portal 2, I suppose I can her.
Edited by Klavice on Nov 20th 2018 at 4:01:46 AM
to GLaDOS
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 20th 2018 at 2:11:42 AM
You know what? Unless a counterargument can be made, Gladdy.
I kinda wish we could add the G-Man from Half-Life... but I think we know too little of what his actual deal is to add him. And let's face it, that story's never getting finished...
But didn't some former devs release the plans for Half-Life 2 Episode 3? Perhaps... can we get something working there?
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I've read it and... there isn't much we learned about the G-Man. His motives are still just as vague as always. The only thing we know is that he opposes the Combine, but for what purpose is unclear. I think it'd be interesting to discuss Wallace Breen though.
As for GLaDOS, I think she might count. She's charismatic, smart, and ambitious, so she mostly counts. On the other hand, the whole plan to shut down her neurotoxin and sabotage the turrets? That was entirely Wheatley's plan. Y'know, the one designed to be a complete idiot? And it goes off without a hitch. Wheatley takes control of the facility, strands GLaDOS and Chell into Aperture's lower levels, and probably would've killed Chell if she hadn't reactivated Aperture's production of gels. Yes, it was GLaDOS's plan that allowed her to reclaim her position as head core, but when somebody as stupid as Wheatley was able to put her on her toes, I have to question the magnificence somewhat.
Love ya GLaDOS, but I'm gonna have to abstain for now.
for Thailog
Anyways... recently I have checked up on the IDW Transformers comics via TF Wiki and realized there were Magnificent Bastard entries on the The Transformers: Robots in Disguise YMMV page that haven't been discussed here (at least to my knowledge). Here it is, spoiler-free (the main entries have spoiler tags).
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Megatron is back in form as this; he was pulling the strings behind pretty much everything that happened in season 1. Shockwave managed to outpace him in this department though.
- Galvatron shows signs of this in issue 32, murdering General Witwicky, ridding himself of an "ally" who proved too willing to use force to keep Galvatron in line. Then blaming Prowl to manipulate the EDC into upholding their alliance.
- As mentioned above, Shockwave. Holy freaking Hell, Shockwave. First, Robots in Disguise reveals he played the Senate, then the Decepticons to advance his own agenda, the later for millions of years without anyone figuring what he was up to. Then Dark Cybertron adds he managed to manipulate Nova Prime and an entire half a species. And then several years later (major spoilers ahoy!), Optimus Prime and Unicron reveal he managed to manipulate everyone. And that's not hyperbole. Everything from season 2 onward - the Enigma, the legacy of the Primes, the events of Revolutionaries, Starscream's rise to power, the Liege Maximo, Merkyln poisoning Cybertron's energon, the history of Cybertron itself - all part of his plan. And he manages to chump freaking Unicron into the bargain.
I think it's worth discussing given that IDW The Transformers has ended, complete with a Unicron finale. My thoughts here, though I am not that familiar with IDW interpretations:
Megatron, based on his past and plans as Decepticon leader as well as his philosophy regarding many things about life (including why keep The Starscream around), might count but honestly, given how much of his characterization is now based on his post-Heel–Face Turn status, it's actually difficult to figure out where Megatron lands at all. He's genuinely a hero (albeit with some grayness) after Dark Cybertron and that may disqualify him overall.
Galvatron, unsure of his overall character and storyline, but that entry has to go. You ain't a Magnificent Bastard if you show some signs of it. Lex Luthor from Superman: The Animated Series had some signs, but it wasn't until Justice League Unlimited that he is a Magnificent Bastard.
Shockwave, oh boy. Now I know that Shockwave is a popular villain and there's a running joke among the fanbase that everything is his fault (and that's no exaggeration, he went back in time and subsequently manipulated the events that led up to the Great War and the Unicron Grand Finale). But honestly, with his recent behavior, his failure to account for the Maximals and Bludgeon's betrayal, his failure to account for Rhinox's sabotaging his arm cannon, the sheer magnitude of his crimes as Onyx Prime (which led to the creation of Unicron), his failure to stop Unicron, and the fact he apparently suffered a Villainous Breakdown when everyone defeated Unicron without him, yeah... this incarnation of Shockwave being a Magnificent Bastard is illogical. Maybe his original Marvel incarnation would fare better.
Edited by Shadao on Nov 20th 2018 at 8:41:45 AM
yea for GLaDOS and the Transformers stuff can be cut until re-eval.
That is a pretty persuasive argument. Getting out gambitted by a complete idiot like Wheatley makes me question her magnificence just a bit.
Wheatley just made the basic ideas of the plan without actually making any gambits. All he had was "turn off turrets" and "turn off neurotoxin", but it was made clear that he had no idea how. As GLaDOS pointed out, Wheatley barely contributed to actually doing anything, as it was Chell who had to figure things out. During those scenes with the turrets and neurotoxin, Wheatley just screws around while Chell does stuff. And really, the only reason why everything fell into place for Wheatley was a combination of luck (he had no way of predicting that the core transfer would occur) and Chell improvising (Wheatley's initial plan of sabotaging the turrets sort of failed, forcing Chell to extend that plan to actually make it work without his help).
Plus, turning off turrets and neurotoxin is a bit of a no brainer since the scientists who made GLaDOS already did that by means of the Morality Core.
TDLR: Wheatley's plan is good on paper, but since Chell is the one who is working out the clever things while Wheatley doesn't help, it doesn't terribly damper GLaDOS that much.
And in the end, GLaDOS gets the last laugh anyway.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Nov 20th 2018 at 1:13:03 PM
Goku Black
Glados
I see. Then I shall go for a yes on GLaDOS. I think that's the first A.I. Is a Crapshoot example. Unless HAL 3000 counts.
I'm saying yes to GlaDOS.
Anyways? It's a friend's birthday today (Lighty's) so I owe him a gift or two... returning to The Kindness of Devils whom I've already put up Lucifer from? There's a few others who may keep. Let me start with the first... Satannus, the Sin of Wrath.
Who is Satannus? What has she done?
Satannus is one of the seven generals of Lucifer, among the elite Devils that all correspond to the Seven Sins and are among the most powerful Devils of all time. Satannus, as mentioned? Corresponds to the Sin of Wrath, be it tempering it in the form of Tranquil Fury or letting it loose in unstoppable blood-rages in her Blood Knight moments. Her former angelic comrades, who used Satannus and her entire garrison as bait in a conflict that cost the lives of all of her men? Were the first victims of that wrath... which soon after won the attention of Lucifer. Together? Satannus and Lucifer disobeyed, with all the other Sins, and launched a massive war against Heaven with Satannus gleefully joining the fray as an unstoppable force of nature... eventually, this led to the Fall, where Lucifer and the other Devils fell into Hell and took over.
Now... Satannus' true claim to fame? Is as the teacher of Daemon, the prodigal son of Lucifer and the angel Aleviel who would later become known as Hardestadt Delac on Earth. Satannus is a ruthless teacher who's mostly approached by potential students for the potential of bedding her, but Daemon makes a genuine impression on her and she takes her as his student, working him to the bone for ten years and eventually forming a deep connection with him as her Soul-Bound, which connects Devils as closer than family. Satannus, though? Is revealed to seemingly be a part of a treacherous conspiracy founded by one Karadas Baal, who seeks the throne of Hell from Lucifer. Satannus ravages Daemon while mocking his pleas for him to stop, sending him to his apparent death...
...except Satannus has been playing Karadas and his entire conspiracy like a fine-tuned guitar. For years. Karadas' various attacks on the forces of his enemies? Satannus has been manipulating Karadas' forces into killing each other, over and over and over while using spells and manipulation to make them think they've crippled their enemies. By the time it's done? Karadas' entire rebellion has ripped itself apart under her direction... oh, and her attack on Daemon? Satannus carved a counterspell into Daemon's body that wouldn't kill him and would obscure his death from Karadas and his forces, while still tricking Daemon into thinking Satannus genuinely betrayed him and tricking Karadas that she murdered Daemon for real. With that? Satannus watches as Daemon tears apart Karadas' entire force before engaging her hot-blooded apprentice in one final duel to test him with no limits or boundaries... and eventually, they come to their understanding. Daemon wins, but spares Satannus... and the master/apprentice relationship is rekindled.
What's her competition like?
Satannus does well for what's been shown so far. Hell is engulfed in a constant political maelstrom referred to as the "Great Dance" and Satannus admits she has no mind for it... but aside from Lucifer himself? Satannus is easily the most cunning Devil we've met so far, making mincemeat out of Smug Snake Karadas Baal and distinguishing herself from the rest of Hell in her short story. I say no issue. Satannus stands out easily.
Is she too much of a bastard?
Calling Satannus genuinely evil would be a stretch, I think (the Sins vary in morality, with most hitting some degree of Anti-Villain) — hell, she's the Trickster Mentor for the series' main protagonist, who is unambiguously a good guy — but she's willing to go to some pretty vicious methods to do what she wants. She brutally beats her own disciple as part of a gambit (as regretful as she is of it) and takes part in a war that cost thousands, many of whom she kills herself. I'd say... Satannus has some nasty qualities, enough to edge her to "bastard," but she's no less sympathetic than the rest of the Devils.
How does she operate?
Cunning, intelligent, and ruthless, and badass during all of it to hit on that "magnificent" point. What makes this stand out more? Satannus has little interest in the political intrigue of Hell, but when she "puts her mind to it?" Satannus is easily as brilliant as any other major figure in Hell, perhaps even more than the usual (given what we've seen of the Sins so far).
Conclusion?
I'd keep her.
Thoughts?
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure on Satannus.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
Satanus
