During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Tentative to Copperhead
Cut Wiley and to Spongebob
I do concur the Zemo comparison doesn't work in many regards but I do think both overlap in that they both have a pronounced Evil Is Cool thing and that while they're both characters I don't agree with being on the list, I do think the points for keeping are articulate and well argued and won't lose sleep over him staying. That being said, where I struggle with Wily is again the pettiness and dictatorial nature of his crimes, combined with the Kill the Poor and Disposable Vagrants implications to his "disappearing" people shit.
Copperhead
Copperhead is posted in drafts.
Standard procedure is to post the draft here first.
May I suggest a pothole other than "Villain of the Week"? Perhaps Professional Killer.
Feels good, don't it?Yeah please post it here. Lots of folks besides me have fantastic editing suggestions and it's easier to see it.
Don't really think Irritant's going anywhere, which, in hindsight, is absolutely fair. Dude's fun, but not much context there. Traitorous has a bit more of an overarching idea of what he's done, but not too much. Not 100% confident on this, but might as well try. Not like I have much else to do.
Brain: Didn't you say you wanted to do Enoch-
Shut up! That takes time, here I can just copy and paste shit! I'll get to him later!
The candidate
Dread Emperor Traitorous is a Dread Emperor best known for... well, you can probably figure it out from the name.
Let us be reddest ruin
Rent, broken, crooked
Black hearted and cruel
To both friend and foe
Fly banner of gloom
We lowest of the low
You rogues and madmen
Proudly claim the stage,
Of this wondrous age
Deserving of any victory
We are a thing of dust
Promised only misery
And let us be wicked
Traitorous was a particularly infamous Dread Emperor, remembered for basically turning betrayal into an art form - and damn if he wasn't good at it.
Most notably, of course, he frequently started conspiracies with the intent to overthrow himself, succeeding multiple times only to reveal his true identity to his conspirators (this was apparently done under the logic that "the best teacher for a locksmith is a thief"). It got to the point where members would fall to infighting, paranoid that other members were the Dread Emperor in disguise, with Traitorous just lying in the background as the group's stenographer.
Other notable exploits include the time he betrayed a villain named "the Betrayer" to heroes; the time he managed to disguise himself as his (female) chancellor; and the time he tricked a devil into giving him "infernal enlightenment." He managed to trick heroes into thinking he was redeemed, even though he supposedly had no redeeming qualities, and apparently managed to do it a second time even after an Angel Choir got involved. And, I mean, I already put this in the quotes folder, but this is simultaneously horrifying and hilarious.
He ultimately died after committing suicide, framing over a hundred different people for his murder.
Magnificence and Bastardness
He's easily the most popular Dread Emperor, and for a reason. Traitorous betrayed literally anyone and anything he could with hilarious audacity, a common joke being that many of the other Dread Emperors (Irritant especially) were actually Traitorous in disguise. Even In-Universe, he's apparently well-regarded - Praes as a whole is basically filled with snakes who would gladly poison each other for opera tickets, so the man who made treachery into an art form is a bit of a folk hero.
Of course, he falls into the same problem as Irritant, namely that he's... you know, dead, and therefore without much presence besides the quotes. Still, I feel he gets a somewhat more concrete feel of what he was like and what his schemes entailed, namely backstabbing his royal court at any opportunity he could get (and, again, they're kind of pricks, so they have it coming).
The "no redeeming qualities" thing gives me pause, but I think that's more referring to him having no interest in redeeming himself rather than saying that he was a Complete Monster. If he did some really horrible shit we definitely would have heard about it by now.
Not really expecting him to do well, but might as well try. Thoughts?
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 26th 2021 at 2:54:31 AM
Here's Mel's draft.
- Gotham: Larissa "Copperhead" Diaz is an assassin who spends her one episode pursuing Selina Kyle. She's introduced being surprised on Wayne Manor grounds by a gardener who she lulls into a false sense of security before breaking his neck and using his blood to make herself look like an accident victim as a Wounded Gazelle Gambit to attack Selina. She gives both Bruce and Gordon a chance to save their lives by not opposing her and is impressed enough to spare both of them when they resist her anyway. She also warns Bruce not to mistake bravery for good sense in the future. While she fails to kill Selina, she does eliminate a secondary target (using Gordon's gun to frame him for the shooting) and then escapes as the police arrive.
Here is my take:
- Gotham:
- "Lovecraft": Larissa "Copperhead" Diaz is an assassin who spends her one episode pursuing Selina Kyle. She's introduced being surprised on Wayne Manor grounds by a gardener who she lulls into a false sense of security before breaking his neck and using his blood to make herself look like an accident victim as a Wounded Gazelle Gambit to attack Selina. She gives both Bruce and Gordon a chance to save their lives by not opposing her and is impressed enough to spare both of them when they resist her anyway. She also warns Bruce not to mistake bravery for good sense in the future. While she fails to kill Selina, she does eliminate a secondary target (using Gordon's gun to frame him for the shooting) and then escapes as the police arrive.
Again does anyone want to protest my comparison of Irritant to the Devil from Sympathy for the Devil? I do feel the similarities are there: we don't get much context, but we do have a charming man doing evil things with demonstrations of cunning.
For Traitorous is there more context than just the quotes? Just judging by the quotes there I can get inkling of a story, and I think I'm leaniing .
I'm not talking about his relationship to Wily, I'm talking about how I view it as a similar situation to Irritant. Emeralds candidate.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 26th 2021 at 6:07:25 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midHe doesn't come up too much. Due to his popularity he's referenced every once in a while, but besides the details of his death not much has been expanded upon so far.
I mean I already discussed the Devil with 43110; the reason I am fine with the Devil unlike with Wily is because it's not graphic in the details he explains how he had been manipulating mankind from the beginning and the forefront is more on him being a Man of Wealth and Taste.
I'm not seeing the comparison here (one is a web novel v. a song for instance); but I'm leaning towards abstaining for Irritant .
Edited by AustinDR on May 26th 2021 at 3:32:16 AM
I mean, I don't want to spread misconceptions... Wily isn't "graphic," per se. We don't get gory descriptions of horrific crimes he committed. The issue doesn't come in him being graphic so much as the fact he's got a pattern of horrible deeds and pettiness.
Oh, and one atrocity I left out because I was so focused on Act II, by the by? Wily brings Protoman back to life and pits him against his father, Light, and his own brother. Mind you, I'm actually gonna be charitable and note that the Face–Heel Turn there seems to have been of Proto's own volition but it's still another dick move to pad out Wily's resume of dick moves.
to Traitorous.
In light of Starcrushers arguments I'll go against the grain and to Copperhead.
'Yes' to Traitorous...Copperhead is ehhh difficult, I think I lean slightly 'Yes' at the moment all things considered.
I'm gonna wait to vote on Wily until Scrags chimes in...might use this time to also finally listen to the albums to get a better grasp on the character, been putting it off awhile anyway.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.They're really good stuff, hope you enjoy them.
Highly Recomend, there was a video set with Act 2 featuring the story bits over here
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVm_FP4-CHnqlc1Sy4hnmfmG05xrvoxAF
The First manI’m cool with Traitorous!
Yes to Lord Traitorous of the nuanced name.
Also did you mind letting us know if you’ve got everything on Irritant or even just making a full post on him here Emerald? I’d like to give them a fair shot too!
to Traitorous
Yes to Traitorous.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadAlso you edits to Melinda's entry look good Sky.
I updated Irritant with a better summary, it's still pretty much everything we know about him so far. The current arc has Cat invading Praes, so we might get a bit of expansion on a few past Emperors, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 26th 2021 at 4:00:27 AM
I guess my issue with the Zemo comparison is, with him, there was more multiple factors there not any one specific thing, he had his Petty grudge against cap, in addition To stuff like his use of chemical weaponry, and throwing all of Reality under the bus to save his skin.
I can get the arguments for cutting though.
Also if anyone was curious on the Results Thing, it's here
https://youtu.be/x_S8o3okKbA
The First man