During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yours counts, also, looks like he'd be fine to stay either way.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Huh, guess he slipped my mind... my b
Edited by 43110 on Sep 4th 2018 at 11:27:37 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Add Vanir on my pending writeup list... I'll see what I can do at a later time. Currently skimming an LP of a game called Blazing Souls Accelate and will have a college at 1pm-3.30pm so yeah...
Goku Black
- Magnificent Bastard: Galbatorix. By Inheritance, it's clear that his cunning and manipulation go much deeper than anyone would previously have guessed
Never read this series (Though Ive heard it has some issues...). Anyone has read it want to comment.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Dread Sorcerer of Auchtermuchty
Username 2527, you've just come up on Ask The Tropers. Remember to leave edit reasons for any deletion, link to this thread in your edit reason.
Keeper of The Celestial Flame
@ mir, I haven't read the last book and it's been years since I read the others. Quality issues are indeed abundant so I'm not really thrilled to go back and see if someone counts.
No, just cut him. He's a smug snake bog standard evil overlord.
From Trivia.A Series Of Unfortunate Events 2017
- Playing Against Type:
- A rare comedic role for Alfre Woodard as the perpetually terrified Josephine. For context, just a few months before the first season's release she'd already been on Netflix as the Magnificent Bastard Mariah Dillard in Luke Cage (2016).
Has Mariah been approved?
Goku Black
No she wasn't approved. We approved Shades from the same show but Mariah is a vile Hate Sink and Smug Snake that's not getting approved.
Also I'll remove inheritance Cycle guy
Edited by miraculous on Sep 5th 2018 at 8:19:28 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Here's the belated Vanir writeup by the by:
''Konosuba: Arch-Devil Vanir, one of the seven dukes of hell and one of Demon Lord's generals, retires from his position to fulfill his goals by renovating a dungeon to be extremely rigged and difficult so that he could battle against the adventurers and pranking them by giving a piece of paper that mocks them after the adventurers defeated him to feed their negative emotions. When Vanir found a vacated dungeon, he left some explosive dolls which made the adventurers having a hard time to explore the dungeon. When Vanir can't enter the inner-sanctum of the dungeon due to the purifying circle, he prepares to kill the person who drew the circle by bodyjacking Kazuma's main companions, Darkness. Although he is seemingly having a hard time to control Darkness' body due to her masochistic nature, he manages to control her and performs a cordial relationship in the end to the point he accepts his defeat by getting nearly killed by an archmage's explosion spell. Although he was seemingly defeated for good, it was revealed that he worked on a magic item shop to help his fellow companion and sometimes he helps Kazuma by giving him some useful advices for his grand adventures.
I'll add this to the drafts. @43110 You know the drill as always mayne! :P
P.S. I'm going to check Medaka Box to see if Kumagawa could fit this criteria or not.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Sep 5th 2018 at 11:32:57 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Ok, I unsucessfully tried to fim his EP so I ask this question.
I notice that the Arrow iteration of Ra's Al-Ghul has apparently been approved. However didn't he attempt Rape by Proxy by coercing his lesbian daughter Nyssa into marrying Oliver and then ordered the former to produce a heir whether she wants it or not and adds that she has no more say in it than Nyssa's mother was given strongy implying that Nyssa herself is a Child by Rape?
Please be gentle if this has been brought up before because I really tried to find the EP.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Sep 5th 2018 at 8:33:41 PM
I think we unilaterally agreed on Ra's. I think I'll give a little more leeway to a centuries old immortal desperate for an heir as he's ordering Nyssa to sleep with him and produce an heir, not tying her down and having her violated (something Vandal Savage in the comics was literally trying with his own daughter)
Goku Black
Isnt that Ras also fairly unpopular with fans though as well.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 5th 2018 at 11:45:18 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I...definitely can't agree. I think both scenarios are awful. But then if Ra's been approved in spite of that information, I won't protest any longer.
I think Lighty put it well with Ras.
If someone wants to challenge Ra's formally, I'm ok with it. I fall into agreement it's definitely a bastard move, but not so godawful that it takes him out of this.
That is a fair counterpoint and while I’m sure he was one I personally upvoted I probably deferred to the knowledge of whoever did the rewrite. If a formal case is being made against him I’d be interested to hear it.
dw about it dude, I just wanted to know if you were still thinking of it. Take all the time you need and the writeup will wait for you until you’re ready.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 5th 2018 at 4:30:28 AM
Foreign Troper
I'm sorry guys, but I am currently experiencing a complete and utter writer's block. I will keep on participating in the thread, but for the foreseeable future only for voting. I don't know when I will be able to work on my write-up for Dijkstra. If anybody wants to do the honor for me, by all means.
Edited by Forenperser on Sep 5th 2018 at 10:20:20 AM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Goku Black
From Beauty and the Beast (1987)''
- Magnificent Bastard: Paracelsus. It certainly helps that he's played by the incomparable Tony Jay.
Alright so Ive only watched the remake (not the originial), so cant comment on this. My parents have though, to the point where well I know Ron Perlman as The Lich or Hellboy, they know him as Vincent. Has anyone here seen it ?
Edited by miraculous on Sep 5th 2018 at 1:51:50 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
- Ace Attorney
- While most of the villains our lawyer friends face are incredibly smug or too evil, there are exceptions.
- Gyakuten Kenji 2 features the nefarious, but affable Big Bad Simon Keyes, a circus animal trainer clown.While initially pretending to be the typical innocent defendant featured in other games, Keyes manipulates the majority of the game's crimes from in the shadows. In the first two cases alone, he gets Prosecutor Edgeworth to stop an assassination on the president (who was really a jealous body double) of Zheng Fa, convinces Miles to go against the Prosecutorial Investigation Committee and defend Keyes, when he intercepted the correspondence chess between the only human he had faith in, the blind assassin Sirhan Dogen and the friend who betrayed him who's death Keyes indirectly caused by being said middleman, by tricking Patricia Roland, one of his enemies, into murderering Horace Knightley out of fear. In the fourth case he sets up Blaise Debeste (Chairman of the P.I.C, and an abusive dad) to kill attorney Jill Crane and have Edgeworth defend the amnesiac Kay Faraday for her murder, having just lost his Prosecutor Badge to the PIC. After that, he uses a hot air balloon to crush the body double of the president, and when Edgeworth confronts him on it, he applauds Edgeworth's efforts, and despite messing with him, sees Edgeworth as a worthy opponent. In the end, despite Keyes losing, he did in a way win, as every single one of his (and Dogen's) enemies was "taken care of". Edgeworth pities him, and sees people like him who have lost faith in the courts, and other people, to be the reason why he became a prosecutor.
Here is my write-up once again, so a mod can add it as there is an edit lock on the page.
Edited by Klavice on Sep 5th 2018 at 2:07:56 AM
@Silverblade: How strong are the Child by Rape implications?
Well, let's effortpost another Ace Attorney Big Bad, today, we'll be discussing Kristoph Gavin. (To ensure he either qualifies or doesn't. I'm leaning no due to being pretty damn evil, but we'll see.) I'll EP one more character (Sol from Warrior Cats) if Kristoph doesn't count.
What is the work?
Apollo Justice is the fourth main series game in the Ace Attorney or Phoenix Wright series, and a departure from the traditional formula. For one, Psyche-Locks are now replaced with Perceiving, and forensic sciences are more emphasized. Due to events caused by said character, Phoenix Wright is now a jobless hobo with little money for himself or his adopted daughter Trucy Wright. The game stars "The next generation" of attorneys such as Prosecutor Klavier Gavin (younger brother to Kristoph), Ema Skye (who is now a detective, and isn't very happy about it), and the eponymous Apollo Justice. (Protege to Phoenix, but not his son).
Who is Kristoph Gavin? What has he done?
Kristoph Gavin is a defense attorney, who is introduced as the mentor of Apollo. At first, he seems like a good guy, but as the first case progresses, we later find out there's much more to him, than meets the eye.
He even becomes a witness for Prosecutor Payne (the Glass Joe of the games, to use a Punch-Out example). He is the elder brother of Klavier Gavin, a prosecutor, and originally was intended to face off against his younger brother (Klavier was then 17 at the time) in a fair trial over Zak Gramarye, a magician of a troupe known as Troupe Gramarye and accused of killing his magician mentor Magnifi Gramarye.
However, there was a change of plans and Kristoph lost the game of poker with Zak and needless to say, Kristoph didn't take it well, and harbored a grudge against Zak. He then decided, he would get the attorney in charge of the case (which happened to be Phoenix) stripped of his attorney badge by giving him forged evidence, to be delivered by the unwitting 8 year old Trucy, who's father was the accused who disappeared before a verdict could be reached. Kristoph instructed his brother to pile on the pressure on Phoenix making the case seemingly airtight, forcing Phoenix to present the forged diary page, and lose his badge in the process. Of course, Kristoph was more than a little nervous that the forger (Vera Misham), the reporter in charge of the case (Spark Brushel), the magician accused (Zak), and Phoenix himself would grow suspicious and that the forgers would talk to Phoenix about who really forged the diary page.
So he watched everyone involved with the case for seven whole years. Including the forger, and set up a trap to catch the forger should she try and give away his secret, a poisoned nail polish bottle. Just as Zak was about to go back into the shadows after giving him a transferal of magic rights to his daughter Trucy, Kristoph whacked him right on the forehead (or as he described it, a flawless bone china pate) killing him instantly. To ensure Phoenix would have no way out or an innocent person would be convicted of the crime in his place, Kristoph took fifth ace that was played during the poker game with Wright now covered in Zak's blood and concealed it. Soon enough, Phoenix found out about the murder and after talking with Gavin, figured out he had done it. So Phoenix asked Kristoph to defend him in court, knowing perfectly well Kristoph would assign the case to his protege Apollo.
Phoenix got Apollo to reveal that Kristoph concealed the bloody ace by forging a fake one, and Kristoph gracefully accepted defeat.
It was then Kristoph was imprisoned for murder, but his motive was never revealed. Prior to the events of case four, he sends a letter to the father of the forger Vera, Drew Misham and sends with it a poisoned Troupe Gramarye stamp, hoping that since Vera wouldn't succumb to the nail polish she would die to the poison applied to the stamp.
Soon enough, Drew Misham sends a letter to Kristoph to free his daughter of the "spell" he had put her under, and ended up using the poisoned stamp on the letter because he had no other stamps to use. Just as the reporter came over for tea, Misham drank his cup of coffee and dropped dead from the poison from the stamp. During Vera's trial for her father's murder, she bit her nails and passed out from poison ingestion. Phoenix and Apollo worked together to get Kristoph convicted and presumably put on death row by seven years worth of evidence searching.
Is he charismatic enough?
An easy yes. Kristoph is extremely polite to everyone and rarely loses his cool hence why he was called the "Coolest Defense in the West" despite hatching plots to erase them all. When he did lose his cool, he pounded the witness stand, and started ranting about how he was the only one that mattered in the court, giving vibes of Smug Snake behaviour, but I'd say not enough to disqualify, as he did manage to recover from it with a laugh as the verdict was read Not Guilty for Vera. He's easily got a Plan B for most of his plots, and nearly got away with it had it not been for those meddling attorneys.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
He is absolutely 100% a bastard. The question here is whether or not he's too much of one. I'd have to argue his pettiness might be a little too overblown and that while he is polite, he still reeks of being vile, even being a Card-Carrying Villain when he says "I killed a man named Smith because I am an evil human being." However, I wouldn't completely rule him out of this as the time before in the first case he's very polite and even a graceful loser to Wright (and yet he's still listed as a Complete Monster for Ace Attorney). So I'm not too sure on this.
Final Verdict?
You decide. Leaning ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
personally.
I just wanted to get him out of the way just in case someone brings him up.
Alright, Kristoph is an obvious no and was probably only listed once before the repair effort due to trope decay, not much to be said there.
Also, sorry Klavice, didn't mean to ignore you about Keyes but I'm not familiar enough with the work to help you with smoothing the writeup.
I will give Kristoph a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. I don't see anything glaringly disqualifying.
No to Kristoph, that is way too much a breakdown and he's far too vile.
Alejandro got six upvotes (Me, miraculous, Doc, Snowy, Bakura, Irrose). Even if you don't count mine he still has five.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15255322860A44444400&page=120