During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Easy yes.
- Charlotte Katakuri is the second son and strongest soldier of Charlotte "Big Mom" Linlin, one of the Four Emperors of Grand Line. A keen, analytical fighter, Katakuri is the strongest of his mother's Sweet Commanders who dedicates himself to protecting his family and ruthlessly dispatching threats. Going with the plan to catch and slaughter the Vinsmoke family, Katakuri proves a deadly threat to the Straw hats, planning an ambush with his family before engaging Luffy himself. When his true nature and unsightly features are revealed, it is shown Katakuri adopted his stoic persona as a way to protect his siblings before he embraces Luffy as a truly worthy enemy, even wounding himself after one sister's treachery so their fight will be an even one.
Does Crocodile need to be expanded btw? Idk if he's done anything since his writeup was done.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Cartigan, Janus, and the Hagfish
Lord of Hell
Nah. Any appearances Crocodile has made since the time skip have either been cameos, or non-canon
Yes to Bridget.
Woagh
So remember Ziggurat? That one game where the Final Boss was potholed twice, and it genuinely was a pretty interesting case?
Well, I decided to research the game, and as it turns out, 2 outta the 3 endings show him outwitting you, as well as his battle being legitimately challenging. Might do a proper EP on him later.
I also got the game for Xbox, and yes, it is indeed good.
to Bridget, by the way.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 6th 2021 at 10:57:17 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
... I do not remember that game Dood, nor what was potholed but go for it, sounds promising.
Yes to the Witch and Bridget.
I think I found one more simpler Oblivion candidate before I jump into Bellamont. I'm gonna do Modryn Oryen from the Fighter's Guild quest line, as I forgot he has you torture someone for information in the quest line. I originally remembered him as a straight Guile Hero but torture tends to shoot you over the bastard line.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
to Bridget Cardigan.
Alright maties, with my lad Ravok kicking it off and with massive thanks to him: let's get ready to once more drop on the deck and flop like a fish!
Who is "Master" Udon? What has he done?
From the episode "Karate Island" and voiced by Pat freakin' Morita himself. Luring Spongebob with a video inviting him to the titular island to compete for the crown, a suspicious Sandy tags along after her pride leads her to question why she wasn't invited. Arriving, Spongebob is convinced he "defeated" Udon's top pupils while a growingly suspicious Sandy observes. Leaving when Spongebob's ego drives her nuts, Udon restrains Spongebob to reveal his goals aren't so benevolent.
Hearing Spongebob's cry for help, Sandy returns while facing off against a series of Udon's minions, each with a hilariously awesome fighting style, to make her way up his tower. After she defeats them all Udon traps her as she makes her way into his room and reveals his master plan: to have them both sign his contract to buy... timeshares! Telling Spongebob he may never be king of karate but perhaps king of condos. Battling Sandy when Spongebob protests, Udon is seemingly beaten and thrown into the (well, like water water, however that works in Spongebob)... until the ending reveals he's lured Squidward in ostensibly to crown him king of clarinets!
Actions and personality?
For what could have easily been a generic Smug Snake role, Udon is a fun character crazy prepared and peppered with charm courtesy of his Mr. Miyagi-like character! He's Crazy-Prepared when Sandy shows herself sharper than his initial mark and the ending shows him bouncing back no problem to try to his scheme on another hapless victim, no Villainous Breakdown either.
Mitigating factors?
Now while duping Spongebob is no impressive feat he does put in place an impressive series of guards and even his own fighting chops to hold off Sandy... who only breaks out of her cage by meditating and somehow willing it to snap anyways. The ending with Squidward as well shows he can get to anyone's ego.
Verdict?
Arrr! Glad to add what's basically Mr. Miyagi with the "Bastard" added in!
Edited by 43110 on Mar 6th 2021 at 2:50:02 PM
Yes to Udon.
Holy shit, I loved the whole “create an island of karate champs just to sell real estate” thing.
Gotta love Jaws!
See, this shit is why I've always insisted Season 4 and 5 ain't so bad haha, yes to Master Udon.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
to Udon (man that was one of my favorite episodes from that show
Goku Black
Udon
Ravok also has one more planned and honestly: there are likely more hiding out there too. Nice little thing here is unlike CM we get to talk about super silly shit like this.
Lizzid people!
Slight "yes" to Udon.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Just when I thought I was out...Damn it. 
So Season 2 of 24 is similar to many other seasons. Terrorists from a Middle-Eastern cell known as Second Wave, led by Syed Ali, are plotting to blow up Los Angeles with a nuclear bomb. Long story short, Jack Bauer and CTU succeed in saving the city, but the bomb explodes (safely in the desert). Because of this, the American government is plotting to go to war with "those three Middle-Eastern countries." As it turns out though, Second Wave had a bit of "help" in acquiring the bomb, and it's all because of a team of greedy businessmen who want to profit from the war.
And this man in question is the key behind it all.
Who Is He?
Jonathan Wallace is a Coral Snake soldier and The Heavy for the last third of the season.
What Has He Done?
Wallace was hired by oil businessman Peter Kingsley to do two things: plant a fabricated recording of Syed Ali talking to government officials from "those three Middle-Eastern countries" in his apartment, and to ensure that the bomb would explode. Wallace and various other Coral Snake soldiers were hired by Roger Stanton to make sure Second Wave got the bomb into the country, and they were supposed to stop Second Wave before the bomb went off. Doing so would force President Palmer to adjust his policies against foreign countries. Wallace was part of a seven-man team designed to intercept the bomb, but Wallace killed all six of them and escaped. After the bomb exploded, Kingsley tried to kill Wallace to tie off loose ends. Wallace escaped again and assassinated Syed Ali while he was being taken to a prison transport to get Jack's attention. Afterwards, he told Jack to bring Kate Warner to him at his warehouse. Once he did, Wallace told Jack he had proof that the people he worked for fabricated the recording to try and start a war, and he'd give it to Jack in exchange for safe passage outside the country. Jack, begrudgingly, agrees (albeit he places a tracker on Kate).
So naturally, as Wallace is about to leave, about a dozen Kingsley mercenaries show up and engage in a huge firefight with Jack, Kate, Wallace, and Muslim Intelligence Agent Yusuf Auda. All four of them work together to escape, but as they're driving away, Wallace is shot in the neck with a stray bullet. Being a stubborn bastard, he tells Yusuf to head to the airport regardless. When Wallace starts having a seizure, they head to a nearby clinic to have the doctors perform a makeshift surgery. Despite the doctors' efforts, Wallace's wound is mortal. Knowing he's about to die, Wallace finally gives in and tells Jack that the recording is inside of his body, which Jack cuts out of him shortly after Wallace dies.
Is He Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?
Yush. He's a clear-cut soldier who follows orders, like any soldier would. But he's not a mindless drone either; he knows how to think outside of the box, and like mercenaries, cares primarily about self-preservation. When Wallace was ordered to stop the Coral Snake commandos, he didn't just walk up to them guns blazing. He pretended to be a part of their team and killed three of them by surprise, before murdering the other three in self-defense. After Wallace's transport team was taken out by Kingsley's men, he didn't panic. Instead, he came up with a new way to get out of the country. Since Syed Ali was the only other person who could also confirm the recording was fake, he assassinated him so Jack would have to take whatever deal Wallace offered him. The reason why he had Jack bring Kate was because Warner Industries deals with international trading, and Kate could easily authorize a private jet to fly Wallace out the country.
When Jack meets Wallace, he tries to have one of his men kidnap Kate for him, but Yusuf subdues him. Wallace just shrugs and says "doesn't change anything," which it didn't. When Jack refused to take the deal, Wallace immediately walks away—up until Jack changed his mind, something he figured Jack would do. Being a soldier, Wallace handles himself fairly well when Kingsley's commandos ambush him at his warehouse, and even takes out a few of them along with Jack and Yusuf. The only reason why he got shot and killed was because the plot said so. He was in the SUV and about to escape when he was shot. And despite his stubbornness, when Wallace feels that he's gonna die, he ultimately gives in and clues Jack in to where he hid the memory chip. For better or worse, it's because of Wallace that Jack eventually found out about this whole conspiracy.
There's also slight hints that he admires Jack to an extent. He was disappointed when Jack didn't join the Coral Snakes alongside him since he believes Jack is a born killer (which isn't an exaggeration), and he cockily told Jack that he "was a real badass" after the firefight at the warehouse.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?
Putting aside being part of the conspiracy, Wallace was fully aware that his employers wanted to go to war and bomb the city. He also turned on his fellow Coral Snake soldiers without remorse, which would ensure the bomb's detonation. And he outright told Jack that he would kill Kate Warner once he was safely out of the country. On top of all of this, since the recording was embedded into his flesh, it's possible that Wallace had no intention of giving up the recording until after he was mortally wounded.
Nevertheless, he did give it up in the end instead of spitefully taking it all to his grave.
What's the Competition Like?
Okay so there are many villains like these, just normal soldiers, mercenaries, hitmen, etc., who only last for about three episodes before they go away and/or are killed. But most of them are either non-existent, just there to advance the plot, have little personality, or they're just following the orders of their employers. Wallace falls in this category, but unlike many of these other villains, he was able to adjust outside of his plans. And when he realized his employers were trying to kill him, he came up with an escape plan, in very little time, all on the fly, and without losing any form of his composure.
Final Verdict?
Mmmmm...sure? It's your guys' call.
I dunno. I always feel like I'm overselling these one-to-three-episode villains sometimes. >__<
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Wallace is who I thought you meant Tyk. to him!
In the meantime, shall I do Bridget’s writeup now?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 6th 2021 at 12:20:32 PM
Cardigan. Udon. Underwater lakes are real, albeit considerably more deadly.
Wallace. Not too heinous by the standards of 24, I think that's enough.
Yes to Wallace and future, I’m gonna be honest here man... I wish you could assess what a reasonable amount of time was without having to ask for every single entry. She’s in pending, you have a place to check if you forget. I just don’t want to be asked every single time.
That was a fantastic final twist imo.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."