During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Look, G... we have all posted things that we regret at various points in our careers as tropers, and I realize things have been rough for you as of late. I will say, I did not mean to get personal, even if I was blunt, but at a certain point we all need to take a step back and think about what we are doing, myself included.
So I don't begrudge you taking a breather. We all sometimes need space too. Hit me up if you want to talk.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 6:44:00 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Woagh
Yeah, G, I have literally nothing against you, or South Park for that matter (Stick of Truth and Fractured But Whole were games I found legitimately hilarious), and I'm sure nobody else does against you, but sometimes our favorite stuff doesn't have many, if any, good candidates.
By the way, I'm guessing that this won't be like Jurassic Park over on CM, where new stuff released is okay to look at?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 3:45:35 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
G, South Park doesn't count for both CM and MB. However, you can do some other serious characters that haven't been EP'd yet.
"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
G, I'm sorry you have to go through what you're going through. If you need help getting through it, I'm right here.
G, I’m also here to talk too.
Just because South Park is officially off the table now doesn’t mean other things are though and yeah, there are times I’ve seen it and been struck by how undeniably clever it is. Heck, I think the movie’s freaking hysterical.
Lies and Violence!
I'm not good with those things called "emotions" and effectively dealing with them, so... what everyone else is saying. Don't feel bad, and I'm sorry if my above comment came off as rude.
The rest of this was asking permission for a revision of Sanguine because I thought the sandbox was locked. It wasn't. Whoops.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 3rd 2021 at 4:43:45 AM
I’m good with the rewrite if that’s how you’d like it Emerald.
Gotta love Jaws!
Not being pushy or anything, but only future responded to my question on the last page which is fine considering the circumstances, but I just do genuinely wanna know the policy for this.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15255322860A44444400&page=1472#comment-36799
Once again, not trying to be pushy.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fair enough.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Feb 3rd 2021 at 4:49:28 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
The Draftsman of Doom
I think future said it well enough.
Feels good, don't it?
The NA list could be amended with NEW evidence but I think at this point South Park has proven it’s incapable of satisfactorily providing such as we’ve given it “last chance” effort posts for literal years now.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Tanith, and I also approve of South Park being on the Never Again list.
I think everyone else has said things better than what I could have done, so I'll just say this: G, do whatever needs to be done to emotionally recover. We at the thread do mean to not put any pressure on you.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 3rd 2021 at 7:54:35 AM
The Dragon
What did I just miss?
First of all, my deepest condolences G for your uncle's loss. I lost my paternal grandpa last year, and my 65 year old uncle has COVID-19 I respect you, and think of you as a friend. As long as SP stays on the NA list, I think you'll get along better here.
With that said, there's PLENTY of other unclaimed material for MBs. Hell, I thought we milked Ace Attorney dry after Pierce and then found Aura Blackquill and Sirhan Dogen, both of which you wouldn't expect to count but do. The former more so.
I actually would LOVE to get a Sitcom MB, which is unlikely, but if Bob's Burgers was a narrow miss, I'd be happy to continue watching if and when the show starts up again.
I mean we got OBITO to qualify. The one Naruto villain I loathe with the fiery passion of a burning sun. I mean I also hate Kabuto, but Obito is one character I never thought would be this.
To get everyone on another topic, I have another Elder Scrolls effort post. This time the villain is straight OG and the Big Bad of the very first game: The Elder Scrolls: Arena.
Who is Jagar Tharn?
Jagar Tharn was the Imperial Battlemage, the right hand of the Emperor Uriel Septim and his closest advisor. The Tharns were a prestigious Imperial family and Jagar himself claimed he was born from a wood elf mother, though later sources would show he was actually half high elf/half dark elf. Tharn sought to betray the Emperor and secretly take his place on the imperial throne, and he began his plan by masterminding the theft of the powerful Staff of Chaos beneath the city of Mournhold. Tharn covered up the theft by tricking the former Emperor into putting him in charge of the investigation. When Uriel later took the throne, Tharn began a student/teacher relationship with the Emperor and fed into his ambitions and delusions of grandeur. Guiding the Emperor into aggressively expanding the Empire's influence, Uriel soon began surpassing his mentor in the field of manipulation, but in truth Tharn was feeding his ego by playing the role of brow beaten lackey to fully gain the Emperor's trust to prepare for his grand betrayal.
When he was ready for his plans to unfold, Tharn met the emperor in secret and used the Staff of Chaos to trap him in a realm of endless nightmares where time moved at an incredibly slow pace. Tharn did this instead of simply killing the emperor as his death would cause the emperor's Amulet of Kings to warn the Elder Council he was dead. With the emperor out of the way, Tharn used illusions to disguise himself as Uriel and ensured his plans could not be undone by destroying the Staff of Chaos. He went about this by draining the staff's power into a gem called the Jewel of Fire and split the staff into eight pieces and scattered them into incredibly dangerous locations throughout the Empire. Even if the staff could be put back together, the staff was useless without the Jewel, which Tharn kept under lock and key in the Imperial Palace.
Now disguised as the emperor, Tharn replaced Uriel's personal guard and council with sycophants loyal only to Tharn. When his apprentice, Ria, discovered the deception, Tharn murdered her, but her ghost hung on to alert allies that the emperor was false. We'll get back to that plot thread in a moment. As emperor, Tharn's decisions brought a crippling blow to the imperial economy and infrastructure which in turn led to a ten year period of strife throughout the Empire known as the Imperial Simulacrum. The original game didn't really go into detail on Tharn's motivations, but later installments revealed he had strong ties to the Daedra Lord Mehrunes Dagon and was intentionally sabotaging the Empire to make way for Dagon's invasion during the Oblivion Crisis decades later. Unfortunately for Tharn, Ria's ghost got in touch with King Eadwyre and Queen Barenziah of Wayrest and told them the emperor was a fake and guided them to a champion that could help foil Tharn's plots.
Barenziah was able to subtly charm Tharn and get him to reveal the location of the staff pieces and helped a prisoner known as the Eternal Champion escape. The Eternal Champion is the player character for the first game, and manages to track down all eight pieces of the staff over the course of the game. Throughout the game, Tharn shows up dreams to taunt and demotivate the player and sends hordes of minions to stop them. At first shocked the see the Champion steamroll through every obstacle, Tharn eventually sees them as a Worthy Opponent and praises them for their strength and cunning. Eventually, the Champion storms the Imperial Palace to unite the jewel with the staff at which Tharn makes a valiant last stand. Defeated in battle, Tharn is destroyed when the Jewel of Fire meets with the Staff of Chaos and frees the Emperor from his imprisonment.
Is he intelligent?
Besides being a skilled mage and illusionist, Tharn was a master manipulator and played the Emperor like a fiddle before replacing him. Even outside his political intrigues, the effort he went through to ensure the staff couldn't be used against him is a true testament to his planning ability. He ultimately lost mainly since the player is an unstoppable killing machine and was able to brute force their way through all of Tharn's traps and designs.
Is he charismatic?
Being able to play the role of friend and advisor to the Emperor so well is a good showing of his charismatic skills, as well as the fact that no one suspected he was fake during his tenure as emperor. The rereleases of Arena also added voice overs to the game and gave Tharn a very dramatic personality and hammy tendencies. So, he certainly has a certain flair to him.
Is he a bastard?
Tharn is a clear villain and more than enough of a bastard. As for being too much, I once upon a time considered him for Complete Monster but felt he didn't really stack up to how bad villains got down the line in the series. Tharn is clearly evil man but never goes above abd beyond by the standards of the series.
Any disqualifying factors?
Arena is quite piecemeal by modern standards, quite understandable for a game released in 1994, but Jagar Tharn is quite an interesting villain for such an old game. He manages to stand out quite well and has the full chararcter and complexity we normally want from this trope. He has a setback when Barenziah charms him, but he does everything in his power to try to salvage his plans and does a decent enough job. So no real issues I feel.
Final Verdict?
I think Jagar Tharn deserves a .
Lies and Violence!
'Aight, I got bored quickly. Skulduggery Pleasant again. Papa Sanguine time.
The candidate
Dreylan Scarab is the father of Billy-Ray Sanguine, and the top assassin for Mevolent during the Great Offscreen War. Framed for the murder of popular peace advocate Esryn Vanguard by the Sanctuaries and Thurid Guild (who rightly figured Mevolent would use a truce to build up strength), Scarab was arrested by Skulduggey Pleasant (who didn't know he was innocent - of that particular crime). Being released as an old man, Scarab is greeted outside of his prison by Billy-Ray Sanguine, proposing in order to get back at Guild, the Sanctuaries, and Pleasant that he should lead a club. A club for revenge. Like some kind of... Revengers' Squad.
He quickly puts a stop to any infighting (at the moment, they all kind of hate each other too much to give it up completely), getting the uncaring Dusk, the hedonistic Spring-Heeled Jack, and the moronic Vaurien Scapegrace (who Scarab, not being one to waste materials, brings back as a zombie when Sanguine realizes is useless and kills) to come on board for a plan to undermine the Irish Sanctuary (who Guild is the current Grand Mage of) and bring the other Sanctuaries around the globe swooping in like vultures. Having Sanguine steal a Soul Catcher and with it a Remnant (this is the aforementioned "Sanguine tries to use zombies but it blows up in his face like most things do"), Scarab has kidnapped the creator of a powerful weapon called the Desolation Engine, having the Remnant infect him and rebuild the Engine.
Heading with the bomb to a football game, Pleasant and Cain think he intends to expose magic by vaporizing 80000 people live on air. In reality, when Guild confronts Scarab to kill him and cover up what he did, Scarab reveals he had the Engine modified. It won't vaporize Guild, when it's in his hands it will arm itself, and when he lets go it will go off. Sanguine having taken Guild's family hostage, Guild will be forced to walk into the middle of the field and detonate it (notably neither Scarab nor Sanguine has much interest in killing the family as long as Guild does what they want, so that's a plus). He will be held responsible, and go to jail (Not sure if Scarab would have been caught in the blast - it supposedly has a radius of a mile long, Guild was still in the stadium but not in the actual stands, and I have no idea how big stadiums are supposed to be or if the bomb was modified to be bigger). The plan fails due to a teleporter they have on hand, and Scarab, while a bit pissy about it, gives up Sanguine's location with a bit of prodding from Valkyrie and doesn't put up much of a fight. Probably because he's old.
Magnificence
Bastardness, again, isn't in question. He was going to have 80000 people killed, and while he was innocent of Vanguard's death he was still an unapologetic murderer. He also lets the Remnant-infected professor torture Tanith, so... not cool (Fun fact, it's the same Remnant that infects her a book later). Might be a bit too overboard on the bastard part, but that's for you all to decide.
He's definitely smart, arranging a complex plan that's only foiled at the last second, keeping a bunch of sociopaths that hate each other mostly in line, and I'm 90% certain was willing to die in the blast that would destroy his enemies. Thoughts?
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 3rd 2021 at 5:54:25 AM
Unsure on Scarab. I feel he could count, but the fact he lets someone be tortured... sounds pretty scummy to me. Then again, Barthandelus/Dysley tortured Fang and Vanille and we let him slide. Tharn looks like a yes though.
Edit: After some thought tentative yes to Scarab.
Edited by Klavice on Feb 3rd 2021 at 5:32:41 AM
The Moron
@Klavice: I mean, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia has Abby, who's a literal child, so there's gotta be some untapped sitcom potential
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Tharn and I'll say yes to Scarab as well, he's bad but he's got style, isn't as bad as at least the resident Complete Monster and seems to have good qualities.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Tharn and a weaker to Scarab.
Yea to both
Goku Black
Sure to both.
Well I have a sad cut here which I'll propose from one of mine in two weeks. Too say it was a weird one is unexpected. PM for the full story.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Hmm. I'd never considered Jagar Tharn for MB. Part of me always just kind of saw him as this generic, conniving fantasy sorcerer, but on the other hand the breadth of his manipulations is genuinely very, deeply impressive. I'll say yes.
Anyway, my own Elder Scrolls for the night—let's hear it for quite possibly the last Daedric Prince to qualify, Nocturnal.
Who is Nocturnal? What has she done?
Lady of Shadows, the Daedric Prince of night and darkness and quite possibly the oldest Daedra in all existence (sources, as ever, differ) Nocturnal is the most enigmatic and conniving of her kin. Nocturnal's followers are wide and encompassing, yet deceptively well-hidden in society; Nocturnal has made art out of secrecy and doesn't even care about veneration given how open that sort of expression of faith is. Her plots are usually unknown to all but herself and she motivates her followers through subtle nudges and influences, described as "a scolding mother continually pushing you harder to be successful; outwardly sounding angry but silently content."
Nocturnal's mysterious ways of influencing people to serve her have earned her one of the highest number of mortal followers than any other Daedric Prince. Some, such as her devout follower Veya Releth in Online, were influenced to her worship by Nocturnal offering them "comfort" in moments when they're most vulnerable (Veya Releth is promised "a world [where] no one ever suffers again or loses someone they love.") to secure their everlasting loyalty.
Lots of evidence of Nocturnal's long-ranging manipulative prowess can be seen—in Skyrim, in the Thieves Guild questline, a treacherous Nightingale named Mercer Frey steals an artifact of hers called the Skeleton Key. Nocturnal places a curse on her remaining followers within the region, which prompts one of her most loyal Nightingales, Karliah (herself a Magnificent Bitch who "sold her allegiance to Nocturnal") to strongarm both Brynjolf and the Dragonborn to serve Nocturnal both in life and in death for the power to defeat Mercer Frey. Nocturnal ends the Thieves Guild questline with the Skeleton Key back and the Dragonborn as her newest follower, bidding farewell with a calm, gently chiding "see to it the Key stays this time, won't you?"
Nocturnal's grandest schemes come in Online, which (as a chronological prequel to the main games) seems to have Nocturnal as younger and more ambitious; twiceover Nocturnal attempts to seize control of reality, and in the Summerset questline, Nocturnal manipulates the divine scientist Sotha Sil; a chapter of ancient mages called the Psiijic order; and two other Daedric Princes who themselves specialize in one-sided deals and manipulation, Mephala and Clavicus Vile. Nocturnal uses and abuses her way to the reality-bending Crystal Tower, pretending to ally with Mephala and Clavicus Vile and stringing along their followers while secretly wiping out their sects to undermine them. Nocturnal ultimately banishes Mephala and Clavicus Vile, forcing them into an alliance with the heroes to stop Nocturnal minutes away from using the Tower to make herself omnipotent.
What's her competition like?
Nocturnal is, bar none, one of the best Daedric Prince manipulators there are. Clavicus Vile and Mephala are the Daedric Princes of (among other things) the Jackass Genie wish and lies/plots respectively. They're both massively accomplished schemers in their own right. Nocturnal makes utter pawns of both of them—it's extremely rare we see Daedric Princes play Daedric Princes onscreen to this extent.
Nocturnal comes closer to rewriting the whole of Mundus than most other cosmic players in the series. And yeah, while she does end up losing (insofar as a Daedric Prince can suffer any lasting loss) at the end of Online unlike Hermaeus Mora and Azura who basically get away scot-free with their grandest plans, Nocturnal has the benefit of chilling out after the events of Online and settling into the subtle influencer she is by the events of, say, Skyrim.
I think we're okay here.
Is she a bastard?
Nocturnal is probably the worst of the four Princes I've proposed if not chiefly due to her Omnicidal Maniac actions in Online, but between the virtue of her chilling out into one of the less evil Daedric Princes in the modern day and the fact her schemes in Online are so impressive, I'm not too worried. Notably, even in Online she scarcely goes out of her way to salt the same wounds that even Hircine does at times.
Conclusion?
I think we got one more Daedric keeper.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 3rd 2021 at 7:32:25 AM
And add her
G... you're not sick in the head, there's nothing wrong with you and I am sincerely, sincerely sorry for your hardships. You've done a boatload of good work here and no one wants you to feel like shit... it's the repetition that drives the wedge: on your end it looks like here and there there might be an update worth providing us, on ours it looks like the show is being brought up again and again with nothing selling us on it having overcome the issues we've found with it before, akin to when a downvoted candidate is constantly brought up without new info. I again apologize for the unpleasantries from me but I just need it nipped in the bud. Honestly I think the NA addition will be good for both parties: it's a good metric for you to know it's not a pool to fish from in terms of being conducive to this trope and on our side we're not going to feel the weight of the aforementioned repetition issue.