During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
For sure, the long runners are always fun ones!
Yes to Frangipani and Juggler.
Edited by Klavice on Jan 1st 2021 at 4:49:55 AM
Here's the link where I've posted my final version of Frangipani since he hasn't gotten any negative votes since my EP. Full Disclosure
That looks great! Can you post it on the drafts please Melinda?
Edit: Nvm, I see you did. Thanks, I'll take it from here!
Edited by 43110 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 10:15:39 AM
I went to add it to drafts, but miraculous had already done that for me. Thank you for doing that, miraculous.
Been two weeks now since the season finale of The Mandalorian.
I have thoughts. I’m gonna wait until the time comes though.
...But it's been two weeks.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
I have 2 maybe 3 candidates from this series which was done on cm.
Whats the work?
The Morganville Vampires Series is a series of young adult novels written by Rachel Caine. The books center around Claire Danvers, a sixteen year-old genius who graduated from high school early and started school at a small town college to satisfy her overprotective parents. When a girl in the dorms threatens Claire's life, she resorts to answering an ad in the paper for a roommate in a four bedroom house, which is how she meets Eve Rosser, a goth girl a few years older than Claire who works at the local coffee shop in town. Eve introduces Claire to the two other boys who live in the house, Shane Collins and Michael Glass. Claire barely gets in the door when Eve tells Claire the secret of the quiet college town— it's inhabited by vampires.
Who is Amelie?
The queen of vampires and the (second) oldest in existence. Amelie is a calm, serene and always thoughtful vampire who overthrew her father the monsterous Bishop with help from her second in command founded the town of Morganville. A virus which has been concoted by Bishop, causes vampires to lose their minds and so Amelie founded Morganville to find a cure with her friend Myrrdin and her love Sam. When Shane's mother nearly revealed Morganville's secret, she had her killed off and faked as a suicide but had her son spared as she doesnt kill children.
Anyway in the first few books she helps Claire out when Oliver tries to get the book of vamprisim and turns Michael, Sam's grandson into a vampire after Oliver's attempt to turn him goes wrong. She also fends off Oliver's attempts to overthrow her. She sends Claire to help Myrrdin whose started to lose his mind and then dear old dad Bishop shows up.
Creating a party to accomadate Bishop, she has Myrridin acts nuts and slash him like a madman to draw blood before running off which causes Bishop to be confused by how random it is... Bishop is the first vampire not from morganville so she figured she needed a sample of his blood to create a possible cure for the virus as it was new material. Bishop ends up tricking her when she goes to help a friend so has said friend stake her, so they rush off to save her. Anyway recovering from that, she and Bishop begin a war with each other. Her having her forces cover key locations while the book of vamprisim is sent with Claire's boyfriend Shane. Reasling that if this war continues it will wipe out her kind.
She has Myrridin "betray" Claire and hand over the book and Shane to Bishop, well ingarting himself into their company as a lieutenant. Several weeks later as Claire is now Bishop's servant she reveals what she and Oliver are planning, thev've created a posion which will disable Bishop and leave him powerless. Thing is in order for him to get it, he'd need to drink it from someone and that person wouldn't survive, so Myrrdin volunteers. Anyway Bishop finds out Claire was meeting with Amelie as Oliver has been his informant all along and reveals he intends to execute Amelie and crew and that he was aware and stabs Myrrdin with the antidote and then gleefully drains her beloved Sam in front of her...only to become powerless. It was all a trick.
Like Bishop, she lost her balance. Oliver caught her and held her upright.
Bishop's face went blank. "You . . . you poisoned me. Through Myrnin. But I didn't drink."
"I poisoned Myrnin," she said. "And myself. And Sam. The only one who didn't take poison was Oliver, because I needed him in reserve. You see, we knew about Claire after all. We counted on your knowing where we would be, and what we'd planned, at least insofar as she witnessed it." A pawn. Claire had always been a pawn.
Anyway Bishop is defeated and vampires cured using Bishop's blood (sorta he comes back later but it doesn't have much to do with this ep). Moving on. Amelie decides to work to Sam's plans of peace between vampires and humans. Anyway after Sam's defeat, Amelie becomes devastated and tries cutting her wrists on his grave...Claire ends up saving her as since their linked she felt her pain. A douchy vampire named Morley makes an attempt to kill her...Amelie though clams down and reveals she had Oliver take out his goons ("Tactics. Sratetegy") and he's left with nothing so flees. Anyway after she thinks Oliver is making a plea for her power (he isn't he wanted to re-iginte her spark), she straightens back up and gets back to business.
Anyway during one incident, Oliver usurps her through a fight after he views as her as not being as biased towards vampires and that her banning his hunting made them seem like monsters. He reveals he hopes for her to be his second in command...anyway that lasts like a day. A ray of beams causes everyone except Calire and oliver who werent in this town 3 years ago to lose their memories of that time. She ursups it back and takes over, nearly killing him. He and Claire convince her to help reverse things and she agrees if only that her and oliver are treated as equals now. No one should be above the other or a lackey, Oliver in turn agrees his ideas of hunting was a bad idea in turn.
Anyway during the attack of the Draug, Amelie decides to have her people leave to prevent them from harm and to stop the draug for good, destrpy the town, Claire convinces her to fight and she ends up getting infected by master draug Magnus who tries to turn her into her mate. Oliver confessing his love to her (Its a slowburn romance) helps her fight the infection by having her rember that she bows to no one and kills Magnus).
Anyway Oliver is hypnotised by Amelie's sister Namomi, as her mate he starts to convince her that vampires should hunt humans again in order to act as a way to turn the town against her. Amelie figures it out and forces Naomi to bow to her and submitt, before undoing the hunting order. Oliver has to be exilled for awihle as he was the most prominent person in that even if he was forced (everyone elseisnt aware).
Anyway the town gets taken over by the daylighters. A nasty anti-vampire organisation led by Rhys Fallon, an expy of Willaim Stryker who has created a virus to "cure vampires" wchich ''kills 75 percent of anyone its used on". Anywa hes brainwashed her friends into being his attack dogs using a monster transformation stimulant. Amelie is forced to surrender lest she see everyone she loves dies...but she still has a few moves left. She has myrrding use the virus as a way to instead cure her brainwashed friends by turning them back to human. She then has them free his captured vampies hes keeping captive and change his silver stakes for a normal one which isnt fatal. As Fallon makes this big execution show...it does nothing when he stakes her as it isnt made of silver and she instead grabs it which shocks him. She then reveals hes just a douchey inspid bully and that these dark days are over with Shane and Claire arresting his gang, the humilation causes the crowd to turn on him and leave him to his fate.
The book ends with Amelie as the maid of honour to Claire and Shane's wedding while she and Oliver celebrate their victories and kiss romantically.
Magneificent ?
Yes. Shes a genuine genius always coming up with new plans. She and Oliver are both Chessmasters and have fun testing each other before you know they become lovers. She uses a distraction to get Bishop's blood and sets up his defeat personally. Banking on his sadism bitting him in the ass. She takes both Morley and Naomi down through tactis and intimidation even though she wasnt in the best place at those times. Does she lose at times, yeah but she always, always gets back up and she does not give up her dream of helping her kind and humans live togrther in harmony. She also ends the series fantastically completely decimating Fallon and putting him down a peg.
Bastard?
While shes a thousnads of years old vampire and she can resort to ruthless stuff. She killed Shane's mother to cover up the secret (he did forgive her later) and was even willing to destroy the town to wipe put the Draug (tbf the draug want to Kill All Humans so its a lesser evil thing) but she doesnt go through with it as Claire who she views as a daughter convinces her not to. She truly strives for peace and shes so calm, elegant and soft yet hiding a steel heart. She loved Sam and later Oliver and truly thinks off Myrdin as friend. So I dont think too much but its their.
Conclusion ?
I will have 1 maybe 2 more from the series.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 2nd 2021 at 10:44:53 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Alright so Dear Becky wrapped up on the 30th. I put the proper discussion date in but this is going to be quick and other than me I think Lighty was the only one following it. Everyone fine if I discuss it now?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh shit same time. Yes there!
Edited by 43110 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 1:44:42 PM
Goku Black
Perfectly fine.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yup fine by me man.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Woagh
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
To the Vampire lady. Damn, Vampires make for good MB's, don't they?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 11:00:23 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Cheers! Alright, Billy is fine... nothing to write home about there: in flashbacks he continues to lament over Becky's death and dole out punishment to supes.
Now... Stillwell on the otherhand:
- James Stillwell, the Vought-American's de facto head, is a calm, unfettered executive who single-mindedly ensures his corporation stays profitable and in good public standing. Hindering the Boys at nearly every turn, Stillwell proves himself their most brilliant adversary, at one point setting up a fake hospital to nearly wipe them out when springing a surprise attack. Ever a man of contingencies, Stillwell also swiftly catches on to the Homelander's plans for insurrection, calmly facing the deranged superhero and after the Homelander's coup is stopped, pins the blame on another Vought officer to avoid punishment while allowing Vought to rebrand and continue operating.
... Is a cut. After 14 years of being a calm, collected genius, he appears for two pages in the last chapter, when Hughie is going through people who could have sent him Billy's diary. Not only is he not the one who did so, he's gone completely insane and does nothing but ramble about how pineapples are "good products", he once had a "bad product"—his last words in the regular comic referring to the marketing of superheroes—and incoherent sentences about economics.
It's a one-off joke and a pathetic end to the guy who stared down evil Superman and responded to his threats of torture and death with "Well get on with it then" but the years have taken a toll on his sanity. Hughie ponders if he could be faking but this is quickly shut down by the man renting to the retired Stillwell, who says if that's true he's been doing so every second of his life for the past 10 years... but The Boys had a strong anti-corporate message and it turns his final words in the comic into a Madness Mantra.
If Ennis writes more as the show's success goes on, we might get him back if he can turn it around, since he'd be an easy antagonist to use as the only surviving Big Bad right now but that's not happening anytime soon.
This post is mostly a formality, he's objectively gone through a very nasty Villainous Breakdown and I'm pushing for a very frustrated but certain cut.
The wifi here sucks
Goku Black
Cut Stilewell.
God that sucks.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Amelie, cut Stillwell.
The wifi here sucks
Damn, cut Swtillell
Edited by papyru30 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 12:00:44 PM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Woagh
For Stilwell, Im... Just gonna abstain. I genuinely can't bring myself to downvote him if the comic brings up the possibility. I know it's unrealistic, but The Boys is a Dark Parody comic at its core, so call me skeptical.
Thank goodness Billy's still up. BTW, having read the TV show's trope page, Show Billy doesn't look so hot.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, true. I'm just gonna say that Gareth is an Enigma and leave it at that (Love Punisher MAX, though)
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 11:08:58 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
And a yes to Amelie with a sad cut to Stillwell
Oh well, I've got some concerns about the implications with Edgar from the show but here's to hoping nothing screws him and we're able to take everything he's done at face value come endgame so we can at least keep James through expy.
It's possible but the work's quite anvilicious in its hatred of corporate control and as cool as Stillwell was for so long, he is an archetype despised by the author so this could well be the last of him with Garth trying to just sneak in one final "Fuck you" to show us the character actually isn't as cool as he seemed. He's a disheveled mess here in comparison to the clean shaved, suit-clad mastermind he once was.
Also yeah, we'll wait and see but I'm feeling much more confident about the show's Edgar rather than their Billy.
Edited by 43110 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 2:06:04 PM
Amelie, and as we discussed cut Stillwell and in to the pantheon of near keeps.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 2:17:28 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Caesar
'Yes' to Amelie
Alright, to sum up The Mandalorian? Unless Lighty decides to go ahead with Boba Fett now before his spin-off show airs, no one counts, as far as I'm concerned
Big Bad Moff Gideon is a hilariously lacking Orcus on His Throne who uses brute force 99% of the time, and though he pulls off a manipulative I Surrender, Suckers in the finale and is technically only beaten by an insane coincidence, he's utterly lacking in brilliance throughout the story and his personality is frankly a rather hateable one—throw in that he spitefully tries to shoot an infant when beaten, and yeah, he's not hitting anytime soon.
Din Djarin, our protagonist, has the personality to hit, but ultimately makes way too many mistakes and poor judgement choices.
The only character actually showing potential at this point is the returned, better-than-ever (in canon at least) Boba Fett who has every making of one, but I'll leave that to Lighty to handle at his own discretion.
And a sad, sad, sad cut for Stillwell, that sounds positively infuriating and extra salty because of how damn long he was a Keep until a small, years-later sequel story fucked him over. Reminds me of Hansel the Witch Hunter from the Fable franchise. That's an absolute shame, but a cut.
Edited by Ravok on Jan 2nd 2021 at 11:23:49 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Yes to Frangipani and Jugulus
This was a surprisingly good year for me on this thread, I got up 10 good candidates with the one I'm most proud of being Kraven due to the ridiculous amount of time it took to research him.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon