During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I don’t care about it alone, it’s more the thread derailment it causes and the fact having other such sandboxes have been problematic (i.e.: that one morgue page on CM that lead to people wanting quotes, pictures, etc. to have a morgue page just for the sake of it).
"The Juice is Loose."
I forgot to tell you guys. My computer crashed yesterday. So the EP I had planned for today is going to have to wait.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Sorry to hear that. Take your time, man.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Take your time Bull
Honestly, I’m not a big fan of the MB/DH crossover page. I don’t know if it’s being discussed but I could live without it.
I'll cutlist it if I remember to or someone else can unless anyone's got a good reason for keeping it? Sorry to hear that Bull.
As we discussed, I have no problem with cutting it.
Sorry about that Bull.
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 10th 2020 at 2:36:51 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Sorry bull.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Imp you cool with it going?
Goku Black
Kill it imo and don't look back.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Sorry to hear that, Bull.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Honestly, I don't really care either way. Were there more of them, there might be more reason to keep the page around, but as it currently stands, I don't think there are enough to justify retaining it.
That being said, I'm willing to reopen the discussion if we do end up getting more examples.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 10th 2020 at 2:26:55 AM
Cool, will purge later the .
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Sorry Bullman, I wish you the best.
So, Uh. New EP to cheer up?
Setting
Accel World vs. Sword Art Online: Millennium Twilight is one of the many Sword Art Online videogame spin offs set in its own Alternate Continuity. A crossover between Reki Kawahara's franchises. The plot starts when Yui, the AI daughter of Kirito and Asuna is kidnapped by a mysterious woman that calls herself "Persona Vabel" that caused the MMORPG Alfheim Online to be corrupted and invaded by data from Brain Burst, the setting of Accel World and a videogame from the future, the members of Accel World Nega Nebulus and Kirito's friends join forces to rescue Yui and find what the heck is happening to their worlds.
Who is Persona Vabel, the Twilight Witch?
Vabel is actually a future self of Yui from a future where A.I.s are accepted worldwide and even considered gods. Yui and Streat dealt with a influx of negative thoughts that spread in the web and awakened The Dreaded and sealed Armor of Calamity, Chrome Disaster. Yui managed to calm down the armor sucessfully but living in a world without her beloved family and friends slowly damage her sanity and made her realize that the only way to stop feeling pain is to disappear. But given her nature, she can't commit suicide in the classic way, but she...has a plan
Managing to alter the flux of data, Vabel effectively travels in time to the Accel World era (2040s) and creates copies of the Kings of Pure Color, the top players of Brain Burst and corrupts their data for her own uses. Then, she manages to reach Alfheim Online by creating a crack in Brain Burst.
The members of Nega Nebolus investigate it as the only players with reliable flying powers and end up into ALO, in the SAO era (Mid 2020s—Gosh, that franchise really is starting to show its true age).
There, Vabel manages to manipulate Kuroyukihime posing as helpless woman to get fight to fight Kirito and Asuna and kidnap Yui, after that, Vabel dissapears and ALO is thrown into chaos as the data of Brain Burst starts to leak into ALO, causing the Cardinal System to act weirdly.
Investigating, the protagonists confront Vabel and deal with her copies of the Kings and also discover that she has brought Chrome Disaster to the rage of Haruyuki, former host of the cursed armor. They discover that the Kings got special items that allowed to get into to Vabel's lair and do it, then Vabel reveals that she took advantage of ALO's corruption to force it's manual consoles to appear and uses them to delete Yui's data in front of Kirito and Asuna.
After that, Vabel leaves to her time, awaiting for the time ripples to delete her for once while being aware that her non existance could cause the vanishment of all future A.I.s or what she calls, "The Twilight of the Gods".
However, there is still a hope. The Cardinal system actively opossed impossible things and thus, as the Legend Class enemies from BB were summoned to ALO, the system of the game creates special items that allow the protagonists to beat the Legends and then timetravel to the future by using Acceleration with the guidance of A.I.s Metatron and Strea.
The protagonist reach Vabel and Kirito discover Vabel's true nature, Vabel is apolegetic but uses the Disaster Armor to confront the protagonists, being fatally wounded in the fight as the Disaster Armor breaks and reveals that a fragment containing the original Yui was still there. Vabel apologizes and asks Kirito to let her die, calling herself a twisted parody of the original Yui but Strea and Metatron intervene and fuse Vabel's data with Yui's, thus erasing Vabel's memories but allowing her to finally reunite with her loved ones.
Charisma?
The Twilight Witch is enigmatic, myserious and threatening. She is one of the most sympathetic Antagonists of SAO and her goal is to merely stop feeling loneliness. All of this helped by Kanae Itou's Voice Acting, making her sound imponent and unbeatable.
She also managed to feat to actually befriend Chrome Disaster, a Eldrich Abomination fueled by The Power of Hate in what is shown to be a mutual fondness, with Chrome Disaster being obedient and loyal to Vabel.
Bastard?
All of her plans are to effectively kill a child version of herself in a plan that could effectively lead to the erasure of all other sapient A.I.s like herself. She using Chrome Disaster again is criticized for everyone from AW and Haruyuki is particularly disgusted at how some of the AI copies of the Seven Kings have distorted memories and personalities, with some being outright brainwashed to others that are aware they are data copies and want to die fighting.
Smart?
Vabel effectively deals against a powerful computer system that deliberately goes against her wishes and wins, the last stages are less "stopping Vabel" and more "finding a way to find her and try to see what happens because she actually won".
The Cardinal system effectively had to create a way to make her lose
Verdict?
Let you decide
Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 10th 2020 at 4:44:24 AM
Watch me destroying my country
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Vabel.
to Vabel.
to Vabel
Gonna leave the decision to the thread with this one.
Not sure about this one, seems like an Omnicidal Maniac. Though if so, would Azrael count in theory?
Edited by k410ren on Oct 10th 2020 at 7:13:56 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
As far as I could tell she's only destroying her kin, not the entire population.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yes to Vabel.
I'm gonna review and research later, but Azrael doesn't count for entirely different reasons.
"The Juice is Loose."
Goku Black
As promised from here. Anyway the other member of the Big Bad Ensemble of the book.
Whats the work ?
The Fell of Dark is a YA vampire book by Caleb Roehrig. The only thing August Pfeiffer hates more than algebra is living in a vampire town. Located at a nexus of mystical energy fields, Fulton Heights is practically an electromagnet for supernatural drama. And when a mysterious (and annoyingly hot) vampire boy arrives with a cryptic warning, Auggie suddenly finds himself at the center of it. An ancient and terrible power is returning to the earthly realm, and somehow Auggie seems to be the only one who can stop it.
Anyway bit of backstory. The first vampire here is the angel Azazel. Azazel was banished from earth and can only return every hundred years though chained to a mortal host (anne boylen, Marie Antonite, Anastisa Romanav, Macbeth). Every hundred years he tries to free himself to start the vampire apocylpse and fails. Sadly Azazel well by no means a GDV sadly lacks an oomph since we never see him do anything evil on his own. That said one of his minions...
Who is Vivian Duclos ?
Born to a family of vampire hunters during the french revolution, Duclos desired to rise above and do more then what was expected of her for the time as a woman so became part of witch coven which allowed her to get an education eventually rising to mistress and high ranking regard of Loius XVI himself, unfornutetly the revolution hit and she was sent to the gallows. Their she met the head of the vampire organisation Silver Dawn, Eramus Kramer who had heard of her powers and desired her use. She disovered azazel and the power he promised her to remake the world into a utopia and became a vampire.
After Kramer was killed by vampire hunters, Duclos took over and quickly revolutionzed his organisation through a mix of respect among coworkers and genuine comradaire. She revealed her ultimate goal: she had seen how humans had wrecked the planet and figured she could create a solution. Azazel had offered his help if she freed him, she will use him to remake the world into her imahe and create a vampire and human utopia. No matter the cost. Anyway she goes for a more tactical and more nuanced approach then Rasputin, ingarting herself into the home of the newest host Auggie as his tutor Daphne Banks she carefully steers him into trusting her well she plans to convince him to merge with azazel fully to allow the ascenion to occur. Though she does gain genuine affection for him in a big sister way.
Anyway Duclos is wicked smart at thinking on her feet. When she disovers the syndicate has sent an agent to seduce auggie to their side, she sabtoages it and when he gets suspocious, she passes herself off as secrelty a vampire hunter sent to protect him. Anyway after rasputin attacks the club Auggie is in, she saves his life though seemingly at the cost of her own with him snapping her neck and then taking chase after auggie with his vampire boyfriend Gunnar. Anyway after a bit she returns and reveals her intentions to create a better world to auggie and tries to sway him to her cause. He goes along with it before Auggie is attacked by members of the vampire hunting brotherhood while shes away, this seems like the end untill a weird gray mouse comes out of nowhere and startles the brotherhood members and Duclos uses this confusion to turn from the mouse into her normal form and massacre them expect the leader. Auggie wants to spare him but duclos kills and feeds off him anyway as she says no mercy for enemies.
Anyway Auggie and crew arrange a showdown between the various factions in order to save his parents has set the various factions against each other well planning to rid himself of azazel. Anyway Duclos though defeats everyone sent against her having disovered this in advance and ends up stopping Rasputin from stopping Auggie from completeing the tirual to banish Azazel as she reveals she disovered that Azazzel had given the same deal to rasputin and realised ultimately that he had just been using her and didnt want her utopia so she turned on him. Anyway she wishes Auggie well and leaves being the only one of the factions who ends the book with their organisation stronger then ever.
'Magnficnet ?
And how. Shes a cross between Buffy and the master with all the coolness and badassery you'd expect. Shes legit charming, acts as a big sister to Auggie well being both kind and playing him into her graces. She would have succeded too if rasputin didnt fudge that part but she still kept her diginity and ultimately ends the book with a solid win for her organisation even relasing shes being played by azzazel and turning the tables on him.
As for thinking on her feet. As shown by the syndicate member she was able to discertne his idnetity and come up with a viable excuse for why she knew him, plus her tactics using the mouse to defeat the brotherhood members.
Bastard ?
Well she. She is a vampire whose working to remake the world into her own image and its implied that she would gladly get rid of all the polluters and others she finds to be destroying the earth in her opnion adn executes that brotherhood member even when he was defenseless but she really wants a utopia where vampires and humans can live in peace. Shes genunily affable, cares about her organisation as friends and hence they recioparte and really wants to create a better world albeit through extreme means. Still she even ends the book ackoldging auggie as a friend and wishing him luck.
Conclusion ?
Great villain imo.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Duclos.
Yes to Sirius.
Wow. I did not anticipate that one sandbox I created would cause so much trouble.
Edit: Clocking out for Shabbat and Shmini Atzeret now. Hag Sameah and Shabbat Shalom Everyone.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 9th 2020 at 6:13:17 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.