During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Jedah
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ah that makes sense. Can't wait for the next FE proposal from you 
The Unknown Unknown
Now then, the other Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia candidate.
Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?
This time, we focus on the Kingdom of Rigel, a snowy land located in the northern part of Valentia. Its people worship Duma and as a result, Rigel is a nation heavily reliant on strength. He who rules the nation is Emperor Rudolf I.
Rudolf was appointed as the successor despite being an indirect relative of the past one due to his ability to wield the Falchion and bearing the brand of Duma which gave him priority over the throne. Because of the barren Rigelian lands, poor harvests caused food supplies to run dry. Due to Rigel's request for assistance from Zofia being met with rejection, Rigel started a war against Zofia with Rudolf himself leading the troops to the invasion. A year later, despite the army's repeated successes in the war, the upper echelon of the Rigelian Army negotiated a cease-fire in exchange for a large compensatory sum of gold. The Rigelian Army remained garrisoned in Northern Zofia in the aftermath with tensions rising.
His men saw a way forward with the treasonous Chancellor Desaix staging a rebellion for the Zofian throne. Rudolf allied his empire with them, seeing that as a way to claim the bountiful lands of Zofia for his kingdom.
Charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Rudolf is very honorable and just. At his final battle, he orders his men to withdraw upon his death, and sure enough, they welcome Alm (his son and true heir) with open arms. He tries to prevent war crimes and atrocities under his reign, does his best to minimize casualties, and has Zeke watch over his corrupt subordinates to make sure they don't try anything funny. At same time, he's even trying to bring the heroes' destiny into fruition with his acts, hence why he felt his son with Mycen long before the beginning of the game.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Rudolf still stands as a warmongering emperor who invaded Zofia with the intent of conquest, sealed away the Earth Mother Mila, which caused a famine across Zofia, allied with Desaix, who allowed thieves and pirates to roam unopposed across the country, and plunged the entire continent into war, and is feared by some of his own countrymen. Also, while he meant well and loved Berkut as his own, he never tried to teach him anything but the Rigelian way, thus enabling Berkut's obsession with strength as taught by his parents.
In spite of all that, Rudolf's entire goal in leading a conquering empire was to provoke a band of heroes into stopping him, thus uniting the continent. He was the first person to see something wrong with Mila and Duma and created a plan to give the world back to humanity in hopes of a more lasting, prosperous future.
Competition?
Only Jedah, who I just proposed a page ago. But between them, only Rudolf succeeded. Rudolf guided destiny and his son Alm to their proper place, resulting in the defeat of Duma and the union of Valentia to a better future. So, in the end, he wins the villainous game of chess.
Conclusion?
An easy yes, I believe.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Roger roger.
Goku Black
Rudolf gets a yes.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
(Upon thinking and reading comments, I agree that that was too much detail. I've cut it back although it's probably too late now)
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
And there's a yes, too, Erazor.
My next Fire Emblem candidate: the Big Bad of Fire emblem 6: Sword of Seals...King Zephiel.
Who is Zephiel?
Zephiel began as the prince of Bern, the strongest nation on the continent, well known for its skilled wyvern riders.Now, Zephiel was the son of King Desmond and Queen Hellene, an arranged marriage between two people who hated one another. Desmond later had a second child by a mistress named Guinevere who he doted on and loved dearly....Zephiel? Was well loved even in his youth. He was handsome as a youth, popular, skilled with weapons, scholarly...kid had it made, whereas Desmond was...not well loved. Zephiel dearly loved his sister Guinevere, and hungered for the love of his father even into his adulthood. Unfortunately, the more Zephiel worked for Desmond's love, becoming stronger, more well-learned, more loved and accomplished...the more Desmond hated him. Until finally Desmond called for him to bury the hatchet. Zephiel was overjoyed, and Desmond served him a toast of wine...which was poison. Zephiel found out thanks to his friend, General Murdock, and devised a scheme so that Zephiel would pretend to be dead....Zephiel did so, and waited as Desmond entered and began gloating horribly over Zephiel's death. Finally shattering inside, Zephiel grabbed his sword and killed his father, ascending to become king.
Utterly broken by this, Zephiel lost faith in the world and humanity, seeing them as cruel, treacherous things who deserved judgement. He delved into forbidden arts, locating the sealed-off dragon tribe, including the Demon Dragon Idunn, and her handler Jahn. He began to scheme to expand Bern, to collect the Sacred Stones and to awaken Idunn to judge and destroy the world of men, delivering it back to the dragons in return for humanity's sins.
Zephiel proceeds to launch a serious campaign that dominates the continent. Under Bern's military might, the countries of the world are swept away, with young prince Roy of Pherae rallying the resistance. His best friend Marquess Hector of Ostia is outmaneuvered on the field and mortally wounded by Zephiel. Zephiel spends the game in pursuit of the others, directing his forces as Roy desperately pushes back against Bern's forces until the final battle with Zephiel as Roy manages to push into Bern's capital. Zephiel? Decides to use himself as bait so Jahn can flee with Idunn and put his plans into action, facing Roy and dying in battle with him, leaving Roy and the others to pursue and deal with that final obstacle...which can even result in Roy saving Idunn from her horrible fate in the end.
Is he charismatic? Bold? A good planner?
His little mock funeral for Desmond is one of the brighter moves in FE and Zephiel? As a boy, he's a handsome, charming lad who grew into a handsome, charming young man. As an adult, he's very charismatic, if cold and somewhat melancholy, but Bern loves the guy, and all fight for him due to their utter loyalty. When Murdock is cut down, his dying quote is mourning that he can't protect Zephiel anymore...as for planning? Zephiel plans down a whole continent-spanning war, which he wins on the battlefield until Roy and friends push back. He comes really close to destroying the world and even gives his own life to see his scheme through.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
I'll say it flat out: the guy defines Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. Yes, he means to destroy humanity and give the world to the dragons. Yes, he kills a lot of good people. But the man has a horrific Freudian Excuse of being destroyed by his father, devastated by Desmond's betrayal of him and being traumatized into the belief of the cruelty of humanity. He still cares for his sister Guinevere, and while he does unrepentant and unredeemed, you can really pity him while admiring him for his drive.
Conclusion?
I say keep Zephiel
Goku Black
Zephiel
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Gundam Vs. Fire emblem. The great battle over who can produce the most MB's.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 12:52:40 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Zephiel. Watch out Gundam, FE is coming for your numbers.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Zeph
Fret not, there's still some upcoming Gundam works and one show on the air right now.
IPP Wick Check created.
Everybody I missed.
Yup to that too.
Edited by DocSharp on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:00:09 AM
My final FE: From FE 8, the Sacred Stones...
What's the Work?
The eighth installment in the Fire Emblem game series, The Sacred Stones is a new continuity and setting from the previous games, on the continent of Magvel. Magvel is divided into a set of kingdoms, with the greatest treasure of each being its Sacred Stone. 800 years prior, five heroes battled together to defeat the demon king Fomortiis, with his soul sealed in between the five stones. Peace and prosperity has reigned in Magvel ever since. In the kingdom of Renais, we meet our heroes, Prince Ephraim and his twin sister Princess Eirika...and suddenly, the empire of Grado betrays them. Grado is governed by the noble emperor Vigarde, whose son Prince Lyon is the twins' best friend...in a brutal, bloody war, Renais falls....the twins are separated, with Ephraim forming a resistance against Grado, learning that Vigarde plans to seize the Sacred Stones and revive the demon king once again.
So...let's talk the true villain. in Ephraim's route only: Prince Lyon
Who is Lyon?
Now, Prince Lyon is the dear friend of the twins. Secretly? He's in love with Eirika and truly admires and envies Ephraim. Well loved by the people, Lyon has a dark vision of his beloved Grado devastated by an earthquake. Distraught and confiding only in his father, Lyon receives a second one-two punch as Vigarde, known as a wise and noble Emperor, falls ill and dies. Despairing, Lyon is driven to use the Sacred Stone to save his father and his people. Now, two routes diverge here. In Ephraim's route, Fomortiis takes root in Lyon's consciousness, while Lyon is in the driver's seat, but in Eirika's route, Fomortiis possesses Lyon completely and dominates his mind, leaving him a spark of awareness and consciousness to force him to see what Fomortiis does to his world, delighting in Lyon's pain and suffering.
Lyon proceeds to attempt to gain everything he needs to control Fomortiis and prevent the catastrophe from coming to pass. Unfortunately, to gain the treasures of the other countries? Lyon resurrects Vigarde as an undead puppet and has him send out Grado's forces to their neighboring allies, to utterly devastate them in brutal expansionist military campaigns One by one, each nation loses its Sacred Stone to Grado. Lyon also manipulates an ally of Ephraim's, the knight Orson, by resurrecting Orson's deceased wife, to get Orson to betray his nation to Lyon and Grado, all while he uses Vigarde as a puppet to act freely.
Lyon then puts on an act of the Demon King controlling him as he leads his forces to worse...playing both Ephraim and the forces of darkness at the same time, before revealing he's been in control all the while, while stealing the last of the Sacred Stones from under their noses. Going to the ancient demon king's temple in the Darkling woods, Lyon faces and kills the dragon king in a one on one battle. Lyon ends up about to gain the ultimate power when Ephraim and Eirika arrive, engaging their old friend in a sad duel. Sadly, Lyon's fall? Fomortiis is resurrected in full and must be destroyed and sealed, as Lyon, mortally wounded, dies in the arms of his best friends, confessing his errors and begging them to look after his beloved Grado, making peace with the two people he loves most as he passes away.
Is he charming? charismatic? A good planner?
This is Ephraim's route only but...oh, HELL yes. Lyon is a genuinely nice person. He's caring, compassionate, gentle and incredibly intelligent...he plays all Grado using Vigarde's corpse as his undead puppet to deflect all suspicion and even manages to hold Fomortiis at bay within his mind. His caring toward the twins isn't remotely fake either. While his methods are wrong, Lyon is a man of vision out to save his people and his homeland, and it really shows in everything he brings about.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Lyon...kicks off horrible wars, kills the dragon king, kills way more people, and does a LOT of damage to the world. Thing is...Lyon is driven, again, to save his own homeland. He loves Grado, loves his people and loved his father. He's a remarkably complex villain who admits that deep down he envied Ephraim greatly, but loved him like a brother, and his death is a tearjerker of the highest level...in addition? He was right. Grado IS devastated by an earthquake after his death. take that as you will.
Conclusion?
I'd give Lyon an easy yes for Ephraim's route
The Unknown Unknown
Big check to Zeph!
EDIT: And Lyon. ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:01:59 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Goku Black
Lyon is a
Okay, ignoring what has just transpired, Jedah, Rudolf, Zephiel, and Lyon.
Next Pocket Monsters candidate: Cyrus. This one I'm not sure about because the dude has issues.
Who is Cyrus?
Cyrus, or Akagi in Japan, is the evil leader of Team Galactic. As a child, he was very smart, yet asocial, and did not live up to his parents expectations despite his efforts. He eventually decided that emotions were the cause of conflict in the world, and if he were to take away spirit, conflicts could be resolved. So how does one eliminate spirit? Rewrite the universe of course.
Cyrus is encountered once (DP)/several times (Pl) before the first official meeting with him in Celestic Town sprouting off philosophy. In Diamond and Pearl he is encountered outside the ruins giving a speech about what problems strife causes, and that he seeks to create a new world. In Platinum Cyrus is encountered inside the ruins and battles the protagonist to show that what they are protecting is foolish. When defeated, Cyrus is impressed, but still continues his quest to remake the universe.
Now throughout the game, Cyrus is controlling Team Galactic from the shadows, ordering them to commit crimes to get the energy need for his plans. Most of the grunts do not know what the true goal of the organization is, as Cyrus has been keeping them in the dark. Only the commanders have any idea of his true ideals. Ultimately, Team Galactic constructs a bomb to drain Lake Valor, which causes the three lake Pokémon, Azelf, Mesprit, and Uxie, to come out of hiding at their respective lakes. Despite what the protagonist and their friends try to do, the Lake Guardians are captured.
Cyrus is encountered again at the Team Galactic HQ, where it turns out that Team Galactic used the three Lake Guardians to create the Red Chain, allowing to control either Dialga or Palkia depending on the version. In Platinum, he creates a copy of the Red Chain so that both Pokémon can be controlled. In Platinum, he is also seen giving a selfless Rousing Speech to his minions, which he later admits is kind of a lie: the new world is for the benefit of himself, not his minions. Battling the protagonist again, he is defeated and finds the their strength quite curious. He gives the protagonist a Master Ball and allows them to rescue the Lake Guardians, as he has no need for them anymore. Of course, Saturn is still guarding them, so the protagonist has to fight him.
Cyrus heads to Spear Pillar to begin the summoning of the Legendary Pokémon that he'll use to achieve his goal. The protagonist is unable to stop the process as Dialga and/or Palkia is/are summoned, beginning the birth of Cyrus's new universe. Cyrus remarks how close he is to his goal, and here is where things really split up.
In Diamond and Pearl, the Lake Guardians show up and use their power to destroy the Red Chain and Cyrus's control over the Legendary Pokémon. Angered, Cyrus decides to capture the Guardians again, but first decides to battle the protagonist. Losing again, Cyrus is frustrated, but quickly regains his composure and declares that his dream is not over before vanishing.
In Platinum, the Lake Guardians show up, but as Cyrus has two Legendary Pokémon and two Red Chains, the Guardians cannot overcome their power. Cyrus knew this would happen and states that their attempt has been in vain. Turning to the protagonist, he forgives them for opposing Team Galactic, as all emotions are about to vanish anyway. However Giratina makes its appearance out of the Distortion World and whisks away Cyrus, leaving open a portal to the Distortion World which the Lake Guardians, the protagonist, and Cynthia enter to close the portal.
As the protagonist wanders around the Distortion World, Cyrus appears to explain genes and how the normal world and Distortion World are like DNA. He states his plan to defeat Giratina, which would destroy the Distortion World and allow him to recreate the normal world with any interference. Cynthia confronts Cyrus about why he is doing this instead of leaving the world behind. Cyrus states that he refuses to run away, and that he seeks to perfect the world.
Declaring that he won't lose, Cyrus challenges the protagonist to battle, and is enraged upon defeat, before pointing out that if the protagonist defeats Giratina, the Distortion World will stop existing and allows the protagonist to battle the Legendary. After the battle, Cyrus realizes that the Distortion World still exists despite his theory and completely snaps, as now there is no way his world can be made. Cynthia tries to explain why people and Pokémon are compelled to protect spirit, and Cyrus yells at her, admitting that he still feels emotions because he personally feels incomplete. He suddenly calms, and declares that no matter what, he will find away to use the Distortion World to complete his world without spirit.
In Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, an alternate version of Cyrus is a part of Team Rainbow Rocket. He almost won, but was still attacked by Giratina. He still seeks to create new universe and fights the Alola protagonist. Beaten, he decides not to destroy this world, and wonders what would have happened if he met a trainer like that sooner.
Is he charismatic? Charming? Thinks on his feet?
In one respect yes and in another maybe. He has everything all planned out. Despite what the protagonist tries, he always seems to be one step ahead. He keeps his underlings out of the loop so that he can win without interference. And he is very dedicated to his goal. Even upon losing, he does not give up. Cyrus is very smart and very ambitious and it shows. Really the only mistake he makes in Diamond and Pearl is allowing the protagonist to release the Lake Guardians, but even then Saturn is still guarding them.
Personality wise, that's complicated. He is absolutely loaded with philosophy and knowledge that he's all too happy to share. He is very good at making speeches, which motivates his underlings. Most of the time, he is respectable in battle and feels chummy with the protagonist at times. However towards the end, he kind of snaps, especially in Platinum, where he goes into full rant mode. But even then, he quickly regains composure before leaving forever. So yeah, that Villainous Breakdown might be too much, but he recovers so who knows.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Cyrus's goal is the end of everything so that he can remake everything. His dialog seems to indicate that no one will actually die from this, and in fact wants to prevent further conflicts in the world. Despite that Cyrus is listed as an Omnicidal Maniac, I kind of disagree since he doesn't actually say that anyone will die. He does admit that the new world his not for underlings, but for himself, but it's ambiguous by what he means by that. Of course, the anime in contrast made him full Omnicidal Maniac dickhead, but that doesn't control what he does in the games.
Verdict?
You decide. I won't hold it against you if vote him down.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jul 19th 2018 at 4:14:13 AM
Foreign Troper
I actually vote for Cyrus (and Giovanni too, thats a no-brainer).
Despite his utterly monstrous goal, he doesn genuinely think that its for the best, he never stoops down to personal cruelty and he certainly has the intelligence and charisma.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
The Unknown Unknown
Big yes to Cyrus. Best main-game villain to date.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
I should also point out that both Giovanni and Cyrus can use Mega Evolution in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, which is explicitly stated to only be possible if the trainer has a strong bond with their Pokémon.
Eh... I'd never be able to vote for Cyrus objectively anyways considering how I think he's a terrible villain with no sense of charisma or likability whatsoever even before his weird breakdown, but that gets to issues more personal than any sense of failure from the criteria. I'm simply going to abstain.
Goku Black
I'd actually say to Cyrus. He recovers pretty well and even ends the game still plotting compared to other villains like Lysandre and Ghetsis who have their plots totally destroyed beyond recovery.
@erazor: Uh my favourite main game bad guy is Lusamine but my sister likes N the most.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:18:42 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I've always felt Cyrus was a little too dull, so Imma just abstain from that one.
Oh, since I think the final vote fell into the majority? Here's Bondrewd:
- Made in Abyss: Bondrewd the Novel, Sovereign of Dawn and one of the legendary White Whistles, is also one of the most brilliant and ruthless among them. To research the Abyss and its Curse, Bondrewd experiments on orphan children while sacrificing his own humanity to create his White Whistle and creating complicated ways to navigate throughout the Abyss through his technology with no physically adverse effects to himself. Even in spite of his objectively monstrous actions, Bondrewd still sincerely loves and cares for the children under his care and takes pains to remember their identities even as he sacrifices them for his experiments, taking one of them as his own daughter and raising her to become genuinely well-adjusted and innocent. Though undoubtedly an amoral Humanoid Abomination dedicated above all else to scientific triumph regardless of the cost, Bondrewd still demonstrates he understands love and family in his own warped terms and operates with perpetual affability and style, comfortable to abandon even his own ambitions to see those with brighter aspiration succeed where couldn't.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 19th 2018 at 2:34:29 AM
Cyrus
He actually has a Crobat who evolves from friendship, so despite being an Omnicidal Maniac, he's not too evil for the trope.
Is the next one going to be Lusamine?
I agree with Lighty and the others. We didn't really need all that.
Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 19th 2018 at 10:38:41 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.