What An Idiot cleanup

Well, the fandom had done a massive clean-up of the misuse the RWBY fandom was putting it to. After the clean-up, these two examples got added so I removed them, and you re-added them.

I have just noticed that you did try to start a discussion in March, so I apologise for not checking the Discussion Page before thinking you'd just added them straight back. I can see no-one responded over the five days you waited. What I would suggest in future is that you do a null edit so that you can place an edit reason on the History Page telling people that a discussion has been opened. It may also have been worth sending the troper who made the edit you contest a PM so that they can join you (in this case, me).

Well, the trope cannot really criticise someone for not acting on what they don't know. That said, my point is that Raven's argument has since been proven right on the 'mutually exclusive' grounds, which does render invalid the argument that her claiming it's mutually exclusive is an example of idiocy.

You're basically saying that, because the conversation didn't go the way you wanted it to, it's What An Idiot. And that kind of reasoning is why this clean-up thread exists. The trope is supposed to be for where valid options do exist in the work but, for some reason the audience qualifies as 'idiocy', the characters chose a worse option. The trope isn't for situations where the fans create their own scenario and decide characters are idiots for not following the fan-preferred scenario. I can see one big problem with the scenario you wished had happened: Raven's goal was to make Yang stay with her — your scenario requires Yang to leave, and therefore ignores what Raven was actually trying to achieve in the scene.

You have two big problems with the Ozpin entry. The first is that nothing you've posted changes the fact that the idiocy treatment happened in-universe making it an objective thing to trope and, as another poster said, it's already been entered under the relevant objective tropes.

The second, is this:

What you're effectively saying here is that you want the show to make Ozpin behave OOC so that your preferred scenario can occur.

We don't know why Ozpin is so afraid of revealing any information that he thinks would increase negative emotions. We don't know why he's more terrified of this than any of the other experienced, adult Huntsmen. What we do know is that he has been consistently characterised with this fear since the beginning of the show, that this fear has caused increasing levels of plot-significant tension with General Ironwood throughout Volumes 2-3, and then causes the same tension with the heroes in Volumes 5-6.

You're asking for a version of the Ozpin character that, at this point in the show, has never existed.

Here, you're effectively criticising Ozpin for not knowing the future. You're also in danger of implying that the heroes themselves over-reacted, and that the train attack was effectively a same-location 'stumble', as well.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 14th 2019 at 11:52:52 AM

@Brainulator9: I understand your thinking the "You'd Expect/Instead/Result" format is padding. But it's currently the only thing keeping it objective enough to be a trope as opposed to complaining about idiocy. It hasn't been enough given this cleanup but unless we come up with something better...

WhatAnIdiot.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic

• Now that the heroes are defeated, Twilight being the only one left is asked to escape.
  You'd Expect: For her to know that she can't bounce back alone judging from past experiences. While the others hold the debris shield, she charges a mass teleportation spell so that everyone can escape.
  Instead: She bails alone. Her friends all get captured while she holds herself in the Crystal Empire fruitlessly looking for a solution until they bust themselves out.

I originally deleted this as Twilight never showed mass teleportation, but realized she did in the final episode set days after this (and "Scare Master", but too short ranged to be useful here). I still question it as Twilight's in the last state (her confidence in her and her friends accomplishments have been broken, all the heroes have been defeated, she's seconds from being overwhelmed by the villains) You'd Expect her to have the time or mindset to come up with a good plan especially when her friends are pressuring her to flee.

Darth Wiki is the one place where this level of complaining would be tolerated. Thoughts on moving it?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Oct 20th 2019 at 4:01:31 AM

I think I've had such a thought.

Back on page 1 and 2 people supported a move to DW.

I've got a query about whether this is an example, because it seems to be cherry-picking a situation to complain about it:

• Grimm: After Captain Renard breaks a spell on Nick's girlfriend Juliette, they become obsessed with each other as a side effect. Renard goes to Monroe for help, emphasizing that the connection is probably magical and that he wants it broken. When Renard brings Juliette to the shop for consultation, they lose control and start kissing; Monroe sees them and recognizes Juliette.
  You'd Expect: that when he tells Nick, he would be sure to explain the whole situation, making clear that it's a magical effect and they want to be disentangled.
  Instead: Monroe just tells Nick that he saw Juliette kissing another man. As an afterthought, he suggests that it might be related to the spell she had on her...but since he doesn't say why he thinks that, it comes off as grasping at straws. Unsurprisingly, Nick gets entirely the wrong idea.

This entry is simplying an extremely convoluted plot line in the show and complaining that Monroe doesn't have the same level of knowledge as the audience. I'll try and keep it as simple and short as possible:

Adalind is a witch who attacks her enemy, Nick, by casting a spell on Juliette. Juliette ends up in a coma, and nobody knows how to pull her out of it or what kind of spell was used on her. The spell and potions expert, who owns the spice shot is Rosalee, who's out of town caring for a sick relative. Her boyfriend (Monroe) is a clock-maker, and looks after the shop until her return — but he's having to learn about potions and spell cures on the job. It's not his area of expertise.

Juliette mysteriously wakes up from her coma, but the protagonists don't know how). She has amnesia, but quickly remembers everything except Nick. While everyone tries to figure out why she can't remember ever having met Nick before, she starts developing feelings for Nick's boss, Sean, but nobody who knows about Adalind's spell knows about this. What the protagonists also don't know is that Sean knows about Adalind's spell, too. Sean recognises his feelings have come out of the blue, so visits the spice shop (known by the supernatural world as a place to go to for these things), to seek a cure for an obsession spell. Monroe and Sean don't know each other — neither of them realise they both know Nick and Juliette. Sean is very cagey about his problem: Monroe only knows there's an obsession spell, he doesn't know what caused it or whether the object of Sean's affliction is a man or woman, but he does know that both Sean and his 'target' need to be treated.

When Sean brings Juliette to the shop, Monroe and Juliette recognise each other, and she flees in embarrassment, so the meeting goes nowhere. Monroe decides to tell Nick that Juliette was kissing a strange man in the spice shop, but he has a history of being very nervous, awkward and stumbling over words when saying something he knows will hurt people he cares about. He has to drink alcohol before he can even broach the subject Nick. He tells Nick about the kiss. Nick is gutted and starts to leave. Monroe suddenly jumps up in a sort of panic and suggests that it might be connected to Adalind's spell. That stops Nick for only a moment, but he's more interested in knowing how the other man is than whether or not it's a spell that can fixed. He goes straight to Juliette to ask her, but stops her from telling him because he decides he doesn't want to know. He decides to stay at Monroe's for a while, but Monroe thinks he's figured out Sean's identity from a news report and shows Nick the recording, so Nick finds out almost immediately anyway.

This is the bit the entry is complaining about. It seems to ignore Monroe's awkwardness at having this conversation, and also the fact that Monroe has absolutely no idea how Sean and the obession spell is connected to Adalind's 'amnesia' spell. It also ignores that Nick, who's usually very calm and perceptive, has been emotionally unravelling recently because Juliette can't remember him and is therefore not quite as able to process Monroe's awkwardness as he usually is. The episode also treats Monroe's comment about it being connected to Adalind as if Monroe's just putting things together now as he talking. The problem is that the audience knows, but the protagonists don't, that Sean was the person who woke Juliette from the coma — in fact, realising this plot point in a later episode is the key to the protagonists uncovering Sean's true identity first, which is what allows them to finally undo Adalind's spell and side effects (and requires Rosalee to return home to help piece it all together with her great knowledge of spell cures).

In short: the entry is complaining that Monroe screwed up an emotional conversation despite it being characteristic of Monroe to do so, and that he doesn't have the audience's level of knowledge to realise why the obsession spell so important.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 19th 2019 at 3:39:29 PM

Sorry to do a double post, but it looks like the RWBY example discussion has not stopped. Jaydude decided to respond to the last post I made here over on the WhatAnIdiot.Web Original discussion page instead of here.

I've asked him to reply over here as it doesn't make any sense to stop in the middle of a discussion here and pick up in the middle of a discussion in a completely different location. It certainly doesn't help anyone else who might want to get involved (either here or there) or anyone who might be trying to follow it here.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 20th 2019 at 10:37:47 AM

In the past I've only taken things to the discussion page whenever I wanted to remove examples; I just put "see discussion page" in the edit reason.

"You're basically saying that, because the conversation didn't go the way you wanted it to, it's What an Idiot!."

Forgive me, but isn't that kind of the very nature of this trope? That we want characters to pick the courses of action that we feel make the most IC sense?

Anyway. In the scenario I wished had happened for the first example, Raven would have let Yang go to Ozpin after warning her about his duplicity, if she couldn't persuade Yang to remain in her camp. She'd do this in the hope that Yang would choose not to keep on supporting Ozpin, after persuading or trying to persuade Ruby to do the same, and return to her mother afterwards. Though looking back, it would have made more sense for Raven to accompany Yang and Weiss through the portal (I'm assuming that Raven can make a portal back to Vernal in this hypothetical scenario, seeing as the two of them were quite close), so that she could bring Yang back quickly.

Of course, such a thing would never happen, due to Ruby's personality and Yang's love for her little sister. I acknowledge that, but I thought it would have at least made more sense than Raven pretty much saying to Yang "give up on your little sister despite how you were willing to track me down and force me to use my semblance to help you find her." Antagonizing Yang was never going to work out for Raven.

For the second example, to me, the reasoning behind Ozpin's paranoia was him not wanting any of his allies to learn too much about Salem - specifically the part about her being an immortal and seemingly unkillable sorceress of supreme power - out of fear that they'd either leave him or betray him, as had happened several times in the past ("Do you really think Leo was the first? That he didn't say those exact words to me?!"). In my book, that makes it IC for him to not tell the others about Salem, and to lie about the number of questions Jinn could answer (for fear they could use one to learn more about Salem), but I don't see it as OOC for him to tell the others that the Relic draws Grimm. That last secret barely relates to Salem at all, and to me it comes off as the Jaywalking after the Arson and Murder that his previous revelations were.

As for other reasons, for one, all of the heroes besides Ozpin have survived numerous battles with Grimm, the White Fang and Salem's henchmen by this point, and they were all together; they could probably handle a few extra Grimm. For two, isn't it common sense to tell your allies everything that might help them survive (In this case, "We might have to deal with Grimm more frequently than usual while we're carrying the Relic, so make sure you keep your guards up"). And for three, keeping secrets from your allies and trying to justify it on the sole basis of it being "for their own good" comes off as very high-handed (Weiss: "I'm getting really tired of other people deciding what's best for me.") and only serves to sow mistrust in them when they inevitably find out the truth, as happened here.

That said, I could accept the second example being removed if it was shown that Ozpin vastly overestimated the Relic's ability to draw Grimm to it (In which case it would perhaps qualify as an Informed Attribute)

Edited by jaydude on Oct 21st 2019 at 4:28:05 PM

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 9 E 24 The Ending Of The End Part 1

• What An Idiot:
  • Discord really didn't suspect the villains with a history of deception and treachery, including Tirek, might deceive and betray him, especially given the last time they worked together?
  • Discord's entire plan of bringing together Equestria's worst villains to try boosting Twilight's confidence without even considering the ramifications and, in doing so, practically giving them Grogar's bell and putting the whole of Equestria in danger.

I intend to cut the last part because 1. it fails to explain what You'd Expect him to do instead 2. he's called out for this in-work so it's not something YMMV 3. the point of giving them the bell can be moved to the above which is the reason why it was stupid (as it would have worked otherwise). Objections? I'll rework this on the 30th per Three-Day Rule unless I hear back.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Oct 27th 2019 at 7:03:52 AM

My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S8 E26 "School Raze – Part 2"

• What An Idiot:
  • Cozy Glow's plan involved getting rid of all of the magic in Equestria, including the magic needed to make the sun and moon rise and set, the pegasi's ability to manipulate the weather, and the earth ponies' Green Thumb powers. That and the literal power of friendship also comes from magic, which would have presumably also have been siphoned away, though probably last, like the artifacts. Even if she somehow managed to win with nothing but a school with no magical abilities whatsoever, she'd soon be left ruling the ashes.

1. If fails to explain what You'd Expect Cozy to do instead. 2. The Power of Friendship was able to break the Young Six out of the field so maybe it would leave that kind of magic be. 3 The damage if she won is speculation as opposed to stated or shown in-work (the show is inconsistent about it like how eternal night was shown not to cause the apocalyptic consequences Word of God stated). I'll remove this on the 2nd per Three-Day Rule unless I hear back.

My sentence and your second sentence aren't the same thing. Mine is about tropers complaining about things they don't like. Yours is that the work has shown us that there are valid options available to the characters and the characters know that, and have access to those options, but for <insert reason> don't do that. The YMMV kicks in where some of the audience feels '<insert reason>' is idiotic.

A lot of your arguments are based on the following: things the characters do not know; things the characters do not legitimately have an option to use; rewriting character personalities and natures that have been established to that point in time.

None of that is What An Idiot, but it is where some of the most common misuse of the trope occurs.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 6th 2019 at 12:20:36 PM

A lot of your arguments are based on the following: things the characters do not know; things the characters do not legitimately have an option to use; rewriting character personalities and natures that have been established to that point in time.

What are these "things the characters do not know" that you claim I'm basing my arguments upon?

What prevents Raven from using Yang's concern for Ruby to manipulate her/win her over? And what preventing Ozpin from revealing that the Relic draws Grimm?

As for characters and personalities, the most I got from the show was that Raven wants to stay out of the Ozpin/Salem conflict, and keep Yang out of it as well, while Ozpin doesn't want anyone on his side to learn too much about Salem, out of fear that they'll assume he's on the losing side and betray him. I honestly don't see how any of the alternative solutions I've proposed are OOC for them.

And in Ozpin's case, if he really is too paranoid to say that the Relic draws Grimm, then I say that particular bit of paranoia counts as a What An Idiot moment itself. What are the potential consequences of the heroes knowing this? That they'll face increased risk of Grimm attacks? They're already facing that by virtue of having the damn Relic in the first place, and they don't mind fighting Grimm. What they *do* mind - at least in Yang's case - is Ozpin continually hiding things from them.

Edited by jaydude on Nov 9th 2019 at 9:06:10 AM

Two examples I noticed a while ago.

• At the end of Need for Speed: The Run, the main character, Jack, has won the titular cross-country automobile race, and received his cut of the $25 million winnings. He and his agent, Sam, later talk in a coffee shop about another race which will double his earnings.
  You'd Expect: With all the money he has earned, and after everything he has endured, for Jack to stay and relax in New York City.
  Instead: Jack accepts the offer. The last we see of him is him speeding down the highway, with numerous police cruisers behind him.
• Scheherezade narrates the seven voyages of Sinbad the Sailor. Each voyage he goes on is more dangerous than the last.
  You'd Expect: After the first couple voyages, Sinbad believes that the bad luck he gets is more than just coincidence, and stays at home.
  Instead: They didn't call it Seven Voyages for nothing!

Now I'll admit that I'm not familiar with either of the works in question, but to me, both of these read as it being "idiotic" just to undertake a potentially dangerous venture, regardless of any good reasons to do so. By this logic, pro wrestlers and members of the Armed Forces (among others) are idiots.

Edited by jaydude on Nov 24th 2019 at 11:41:43 AM

I haven't responded for a while because I was hoping other people would chip in with advice, given that my response to at least part of my post would be to refer you to previous posts — when one or both of us have to reiterate points we've already made, we need input from other people.

That said, if you're trying to trope on the basis of filling in answers to questions the show's plot hasn't yet explored (for example, the potential consequences of the heroes knowing the Relic attracts Grimm), I do have to emphasise again that all you'd be doing is troping your own speculation instead of the actual show.

The What An Idiot pages for game shows all need a look. They're all comprised of basically "person gets an answer wrong" repeated many times - not any form of actual idiocy.

Not to mention that they are talking about real people.

I was trying to add this to the RWBY page:

• What An Idiot
  • It's reavealed that Raven, despite wanting nothing to do with Ozpin's war, not only invited the spring maiden into her tribe, but instead of kicking her out when she showed no imporvments after a certain, Raven instead killed her taking her powers (which Raven knew would happen), making Raven personally a key piece part of the war and requiring Vernal to pretend to be the spring maiden so no one knows it's really Raven. This ends with Raven being drag into the war anyway when Cinder strong arms her into going opening the Haven vault and Vernal gets killed when Cinder betrayed them to steal the steal the maiden powers herself.
  • Downplayed with Raven's plan to steal the Haven relic for herself. Yang manages to explain to her that, if she wants to stay out of the Salem/Ozpin war, taking the relic (the one thing Salem wants more than anything else) will only increase Salem's attention on her, so she leaves the relic with Yang. However, her plan still counts as this since she had already made it to the relic before relizing that and it's not something that you'd think Raven would need to be told.

Makes sense to me, and that your second example is specifically pointed out in-universe should be a qualifier.

All seems above board.

Yeah, that scene is really bizarre. It shows how rush Volume 5 was that the finale felt it necessary to stop in its track and explain why a characters plan made no sense.

I noticed that some of my sentences made no sense with this entire, so I fixed it up a little. No spoiler filter this time.

It's revealed that Raven, despite wanting nothing to do with Ozpin's war, not only invited the spring maiden into her tribe, but instead of kicking her out when she showed no improvements after a certain time, Raven instead killed her taking her powers (which Raven knew would happen), making Raven personally a key piece in the war and requiring Vernal to pretend to be the spring maiden so no one knows it's really Raven. This ends with Raven being drag into the war anyway when Cinder strong arms her and Vernal into going to Haven to open the vault and Vernal gets killed when Cinder betrayed them to steal the steal the maiden powers herself.

Just to clean up your grammar:

Raven, despite wanting nothing to do with Ozpin's war, not only invites the Spring Maiden into her tribe, but instead of kicking her out when she showed no improvement after a certain time, kills her and takes her powers (which Raven knew would happen). Raven subsequently becomes a key piece in the war and requires Vernal to pretend to be the Spring Maiden so no one learns the truth. This ends with Raven being dragged into the war anyway when Cinder strong arms her and Vernal into going to Haven to open the vault, and Vernal gets killed when Cinder betrays them to steal the steal the Maiden powers herself.

YMMV.Pokemon S 14 E 47 Crisis From The Underground Up has an entry that is formatted incorrectly and solely consists of one commentator's words as to why the plan sucks. (The following episode does too but that's under Idiot Plot.)

I know it's a moot point at this stage, but I just wanted to confirm on record that I'm fine with the clean-up tweaks of the RWBY entries. Apologies for having been swallowed by the Real Life bug when I was the person who directed you to this thread in the first place.

I think I may have found another example from RWBY Volume 7's penultimate episode:

Neo is disguise as Oscar, has the relic of knowledge, and is right in front of team JNR when suddenly the real Oscar comes running down the hallway and punches her right in the face causing her to drop the relic and reveal herself to the others. Considering Oscar called out to them before he even in the hallway and started his wind up very early, Neo had more than enough time to activate her semblance and dodge the attack. This is especially embarrassing considering she has dodged attacks from both Yang and Cinder in the past at much closer ranges.

WhatAnIdiot.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic has a folder for general examples. They're redundant With Talking Is a Free Action and Forgot About His Powers. And there's these two suspect examples:

• Equestria is a land of magic. Since magic is so prevalent, it comes as no surprise that many of its villains have figured out various ways to corrupt and/or neutralize it. Given the wildly conflicting personalities present within the Mane Six, it's not always guaranteed that they will be able to utilize The Power of Friendship until after the villain has already thrashed them, destroyed the countryside, filed the paperwork, and picked out a throne to begin his rule over Equestria.
  You'd Think: Our little ponies would maintain a proper military instead of relying on the untrained Mane Six, and then develop and utilize both magical and non-magical weapons and defenses. For example, outfitting Canterlot with point-defense cannons to guard against attacks by airship. Or, seeing as how every single pony with the word "princess" in her name is a priority target, posting snipers and armed security guards to cover every major event involving them. Or rocket launchers (with triggers big enough for hooves to pull) to blow Anti-Magic villains to pieces.
  Instead: They only ever fight using magical attacks and defenses (at many points after they've already seen that magic has zero effect on that particular villain), and rely heavily on The Power of Friendship and The Power of Love to save the day after the bad guy's all but won.
  You'd Then Expect: For at least one villain to just knock one or more of the Mane Six out. Problem Solved, Series Over.
  Instead: The villains just incapacitate them or break their spirits, an impermanent solution.

The level of violence and military logic for the former to work would be impossible to implement given the shows target demographic. I don't know of any other examples where solutions too outside the tone of the show to realistically consider are considered idiotic. The latter has the same problem as...

• While the magic of friendship is incredibly powerful, Twilight herself (unlike Rarity) has little fighting skills or experience. She's the most powerful magic caster in Equestria, but she fits into the bill of Unskilled, but Strong.
  You'd Think: While Twilight is giving a speech about friendship, the current villain would just confront her physically, knock her out, and abduct her away from her friends and/or the Villain-Beating Artifact, leaving her completely defenseless. Problem Solved, Series Over.
  Instead: While Tirek, Starlight, and Sunset DO confront Twilight physically, none of them bothers with the "abduct Twilight away from her friends or instant-win artifact" part. The only ones who do capture Twilight at different points are Queen Chrysalis (who also captured everypony else of importance) and Tempest Shadow, and even then only Chrysalis actually bothered with knocking her unconscious. Even then, refer back to the above passage to see how she failed to do the same with Starlight.

Nearly all those villains were those Locked Out of the Loop who didn't know who they are or their powers worked that way. Those who did know were those with the cunning or power such they successfully dealt with them all at once rendering that irrelevant. The described examples can go under the individual episodes/work.

Should those be removed?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 21st 2020 at 4:21:18 AM

Yes, that's calling characters idiots for not... being characters from an entirely different genre