Is this an example?

Major spoilers for Persona 3.

So, there's an argument on the discussion page about whether Aigis or Yukari is the Implied Love Interest. It's agreed upon that both harbor feelings towards the main character (MC). The disagreement is on reciprocation.

• Yukari side: Argues that at points the player has the choice to hug her, to call her cute, and several instances of She Is Not My Girlfriend early on (including a scene when they end up in a Love Hotel when under mind control).
• Aigis side: Argues that since MC has hearts over his head when he first sees Aigis that implies at least attraction. According to the existing writeup, they also hold hands at some point but frankly I don't remember that. The largest argument is that MC spends the final moments of his life in Aigis' lap and the ending theme is sung from Aigis' perspective about their bond.

So yes. To me this seems pretty cut and dry because what's canon is that while both harbor romantic feelings for the main character, Aigis is singled out as the most important relationship. The "implied" comes in because the game has dating sim elements so theoretically many girls can be romanced.

One side is arguing that either both should be Implied Love Interest, or both should go to Ship Tease. Inviting ~Blazing Trolls because I must be leaving some of the Yukari things out, I'm just taking what was previously on the page and in the discussion.

Edited by Larkmarn on Sep 5th 2018 at 10:10:05 AM

I can't speak to the specifics of that game, but is there any reason there can't be two love interests for the same character?

Hello. Thank you to whomever answered my previous query. However I also need some reference for the trope Moral Myopia. In the game Knights Of The Old Republic a terrorist questions why it's okay for someone to kill millions with a warship and be hailed as a war hero, yet he kills hundreds with explosives and is labelled as a terrorist. I'm uncertain as to whether this is Moral Myopia, or a subverison, or inversion perhaps. Thank you for your assistance.

From Dark Horse Victory, under the "Examples of the "Hey, at least the other guy didn't win" variation" folder:

• In the 1968 presidential primaries, Eugene McCarthy would start out as the Democratic front runner after Lyndon Johnson declined to seek another term as president. Soon afterwards, Robert F. Kennedy would also run against McCarthy, until he was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan. Many of Kennedy's delegates chose to support George McGovern instead of McCarthy. When Vietnam War Protesters surrounded the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago, and while Kennedy's delegates were torn between McCarthy and McGovern, in the end, Vice-President Hubert Humphrey was eventually nominated on the first ballot as the Democrats' presidential candidate.

Humphrey was the incumbent Vice President and the preferred choice of outgoing President Lyndon Johnson, so he wasn't a dark horse. Furthermore, Humphrey had a large lead in the delegate totals at the time of Robert Kennedy's assassination, having won the support of most states where there were no primaries, and some historians believe that Humphrey would have won the Democratic nomination even if RFK had lived.

Edited by costanton11 on Sep 21st 2018 at 10:20:21 AM

On the Persona 3 issue I believe both are valid examples of love interest. Both have have clear moments of Ship Tease with the protagonist. Side material tends to divide up Which love interest gets more focus. Future games in the series also avoid choosing a Implied Love Interest. The ultimate issue is you’re talking about a game where you can choose a Love Interest. So I’d say it’s fair to at least list both arguments .

Also you left a few key Yukari details out: such has the option to express attraction many times, also blushes on beach when seeing her, is the only automatic date to the spring festival, Etc.

Edited by BlazingTrolls on Sep 5th 2018 at 8:42:28 AM

"The "implied" comes in because the game has dating sim elements so theoretically many girls can be romanced. "

About Persona 3 example, I haven't played it, but I think that one sentence should make things clear. Both are romantic options, it's up to the player whether he chooses Aigis, Yukari, Both or neither. So I would say neither qualifies as ILI.

I also suggested neither of those was a good example do to the nature of the game. I will state however side material focuses on them, but in game itself you can persue anyone you wish.

Edited by BlazingTrolls on Sep 5th 2018 at 8:46:52 AM

Valid point. If it's a Dating Sim, then the player chooses the outcome, so none of those tropes can apply.

~Darius Angel: Moral Myopia is when the issue is called out in-universe, so yes, it's an example. See also A Million Is a Statistic.

~costanton11: As you say, the example isn't valid. Moreover, it seems to violate ROCEJ.

@Fighteer so remove them Fom Implied Love Interest? Would it be okay to list each example under Ship Tease, or does it not apply there as well?

Edited by BlazingTrolls on Sep 5th 2018 at 9:07:54 AM

Again, it's a game in which the player chooses the outcome. Ergo, all of the characters are actual, real love interests (not implied) and the player is intended to be tempted by all of them. None of those tropes can apply in such a situation.

Alright will make the edit, thank you for the input.

So the reason that I think Aigis still counts is that regardless of player choice, the ending of the game (where the main character dies in her lap) remains the same, as does the ending theme song being sung from her perspective. From the description "A variation also happens a lot in video games where the player has more than one possible love interest. One character will often be the "preferred" option, with the most work gone into their romantic "route," hints nudging the player in their direction early on (such as being the first one the player runs into), or just the easiest to connect with unless the player deliberately chooses to go with another choice."

They're both love potential love interests, but regardless of player choice Aigis is used in this romantic pose at the emotional climax of the game.

Edited by Larkmarn on Sep 5th 2018 at 1:08:51 PM

Again the same is true with Yukari. Utimately though it’s up to the player if they reciprocate. The fact the creators have avoided a “definite” Love Interest, also means there probably isn’t one. Ultimately you can’t claim one over the other in game with dating sim elements.

So, okay, wait. You keep saying "it's the same" when the sheer level of it doesn't seem to be the case. Unless I'm missing something, in which case please inform us.

Don't just say "no, it's the same" repeatedly. It's unhelpful.

And according to the description, you explicitly can have an Implied Love Interest in a game with multiple romantic routes chosen by the player. Like, that's there. You can't make claims that are untrue, and that's part of the reason I feel like you're not discussing this in good faith.

You're right there isn't a definite love interest. It's left ambiguous for the sake of avoiding Cutting The Branches. Which is why they went with an Implied Love Interest.

Edited by Larkmarn on Sep 5th 2018 at 1:31:38 PM

I don’t see how that’s fair. I’ve acknowledged both sides have clear feeling for the protagonist and side material put some focus on them. But I also think you’re ignoring one side of the argument, in favor of you’re preferred love interest. Ultimately it’s a game where you can choose who to romantically persue. So while the girls may have feelings for us, I agree agree with the above there is no “implied”.

Edited by BlazingTrolls on Sep 5th 2018 at 10:48:56 AM

Your grammar is kinda wonky...

Yeah I’m on a phone and internet is a bit slow. Also trying to get my point out fast, because I’m in the middle of something. I will edit it.

I don't believe I've mentioned Mitsuru or Elizabeth, so your thesis there is flawed. But best girl joking aside, I don't care about shipping. I certainly don't like Aigis, memes aside ("I NEED YOUR HALP!" is about the only thing I like about her). I care about trying to accurately portray the tropes in the game on our pages. You seem to care about your preferred ship getting as much spotlight as Aigis' via repeating "they're the same" ad nauseam and misrepresenting the trope, which to be frank I am not a huge fan of.

The point of mentioning the ending theme song is to draw attention to the Character Focus of Aigis in regards to the "nudge" mentioned in the description for ILI. That said, the far bigger thing is the ending cinematic where the MC chooses to spend his final moments in Aigis' lap, regardless of player choice.

Edited by Larkmarn on Sep 5th 2018 at 1:58:27 PM

Larkmarn, let me quote two things you've said.

"It's agreed upon that both harbor feelings towards the main character (MC). The disagreement is on reciprocation. "

"and the ending theme is sung from Aigis' perspective about their bond. "

From what I understand, Aigis is canonically in love with the Protagonist, and that was never subjected to debate. What's up to debate is whether or not the Protagonist loves her, which from what I can tell is dependent on player's choices. The thing is, the way you describe the ending seems to be told from Aigis's perspective and it's about her feelings, rather than the protagonist's. Since her feelings are clearly canon, i don't see it as an argument. Optional is not the same as ambiguous. The way you describe the gameplay mechanic it seems that reciprocating the feelings is a players choice, rather than unclear.

@N Ninja that’s pretty much the case.

Future games confirm both the disscused girls (some hint all the girls) have feelings for the protagonist, but avoiding choosing a “canon” choice. This due to the Dating Sim elements.

Edited by BlazingTrolls on Sep 5th 2018 at 11:03:59 AM

So, if someone can be an Implied Love Interest because of hints or nudges early on, why is an end-game scene relevant to that? And if it always occurs, it's not part of any romantic route. It's part of the main game.

Speaking as someone unfamiliar with the game, based on the arguments presented here I don't see how either fits Implied Love Interest.

"Implied" means it isn't explicitly canon. You can't both have a definitive scene establishing Alice as Bob's love interest and describe the relationship as implied.

Now, if there's a canonical outcome of the love story regardless of the player's choices in game... despite being a rather dickish move on the part of the writers unless it's to establish the status quo for a sequel... the correct trope is Official Couple.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2018 at 2:04:36 PM

So basically implied is the whole early Link Zelda thing. Never outright confirmed to be a couple.

Edited by BlazingTrolls on Sep 5th 2018 at 11:12:35 AM

You mean whether Link and Zelda were boffing off-camera? Well, it is a kid-oriented series, after all, but yeah. I haven't played any of the games myself since the N64 days, but it seems that the relationship remains platonic throughout, with only hints at something greater. Or do they become a canonical couple in more recent games?

This reminds me of how Zero Punctuation maintains a Running Gag that Mario and Princess Peach have a sexual relationship, with Peach using her charms to keep him corruptly serving her illegitimate government.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2018 at 5:00:22 AM