This thread is for cleaning up pages that violate the No Lewdness, No Prudishness policy.
Do not use this thread for reporting pages that need to be cut for violating The Content Policy. Report pages that appear too lewd or gushy to have on the wiki using the "Report Page" button on the sidebar, with the checkbox saying "The page may violate the Content Policy" checked. That will create a thread on the Content Violation Discussions subforum
. The thread will be opened by a mod if the report is valid, and if it's deemed necessary, the page will be cleaned according to the Content Policy. (The list of pages that were deemed problematic can be found on The Content Policy's page.)
No Lewdness:
"Lewdness" is more than just being about something sexual or potentially sexual. Here are some signs of lewd writing:
- Personal opinions on hotness. Examples should stand on their own without the introduction of YMMV material. Adding your own thoughts and feelings on an example is an opinion, same as calling an example good or bad. Don't do it. Don't try and extend your feelings to a larger group of fans either, e.g. "...and fangirls everywhere rejoiced". You're not fooling anyone.
- Overly detailed examples. The example doesn't need to be an exact sensory account of the event. Too much of that and you end up sounding like you're writing porn. When in doubt, drop a few adjectives.
- Unrelated fanservice mentions. If the hot bits aren't related to the example, they don't belong in the example.
- Pornographic writing. If you're writing porn, it should be somewhere other than the wiki. Keep it Family Friendly.
- Titillation links. Tell, don't show. We don't need screen shots to illustrate NSFW fanservice. If a reader is really curious, they can go look it up on Google. (See also Weblinks Are Not Examples.)
- Pedo gushing. We don't need to describe children sexually. This should be cut immediately. We're not interested in hosting pedophilia fantasies. Period. If a work contains children having sex, even if portrayed negatively, report it as a potential violation of The Content Policy using the "Report Page" button◊ in the sidebar.
- Talking about actors instead of characters. An actor is not the character they play. When you're writing an example about a work, refer to the character, not the actor. This applies to non-sexual references, but too often it's tropers writing about how they find certain actors hot. That doesn't fit in character examples.
- Thinking a page with a Not Safe for Work subject is license to be lewd. Even when we discuss porn, we are about just stating the facts.
- Fanfic Recs for underage sex. We will not host any recommendation for fics that have explicit sex involving people apparently or actually younger than 16. Period. We categorically do not recommend fics with sex in which at least one participant:
- This applies even if all parties are underage.
No Prudishness:
- Don't cutlist or gut pages just because they're about sexual topics. Sex exists. It's used in media a lot. You'll just need to cope with that fact. Relationships, fanservice, and sexual activity all fall into their own tropes as a result.
- Don't be a Bluenose Bowdlerizer. We're not looking to censor all sex off the wiki. If the sex and sexuality is an honest part of the work and relevant to the example, it belongs there.
- The wiki is not rated G. We aren't sanitizing the wiki for small children. Sex and sexuality are part of media and we aren't going to ignore them. This wiki is Family Friendly, not Unsupervised Small Child Friendly. This isn't an excuse to make work pages dirtier than the work itself, as the above No Lewdness section makes clear, but neither is it an excuse to make those pages cleaner than the work itself.
For further explanations, please read this thread
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 6th 2024 at 3:54:01 AM
I cut the hyperbole on the Victorious example, and the latter half of it that was listing a bunch of other shows.
kiby :]
And if you know about a particular Schneider who was involved in shows like Victorious, it makes it all the more squickier.
(Don't) take me home.
i'm at the combination she and it
here's one i'm concerned about in the potentially lewd gushing pile, YMMV.Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated. several entries are based on a supposed meme of fred liking "traps" (as in, literal Booby Traps, but taken as the Transgender Fetishization double meaning). using "trap" in this context is very controversial because a lot of trans women find it derogatory, myself included. regardless of that, it seems more like an in-joke with a particular group of people than an actual meme—i'm not sure, i haven't actively searched for it—and it's still shoehorned in most of these contexts, particularly these two:
under What Do You Mean, It's for Kids?: "The suggestive aspects of the show are also jacked up, from Fred's obsession over his "Traps Illustrated" magazine to the repeated blatant hints Velma wants to take her relationship with Shaggy to the next level. To say the themes of this show get a little intense for a TV-Y7 show—let alone an iteration of Scooby Doo—is putting it extremely mildly." (the pothole is what i take issue with; "traps illustrated" thing isn't likely to be a double entendre. it's a little racy, but it's also, again, a joke about booby traps.)
under Never Live It Down: "Usually the source of or at least largely responsible for the "Fred loves traps" meme." (this is absolutely not the first thing i think about when i see Mystery Incorporated.)
it's also listed under Accidental Innuendo (which i can see being kept) and Memetic Mutation (which is okay, but again, it seems more like an in-joke). the page also seems indecisive whether "traps" should be wicked to Unsettling Gender-Reveal, Wholesome Crossdresser, or Transgender Fetishization; it seems likely to me someone added this as projecting their own fetish and then other editors tried later to tone it down. if it's not that, it still seems like such a limited number of people that it shouldn't have this much attention drawn to it. the Accidental Innuendo entry at most.
any thoughts on how to handle this?
Goku Black
Isn't trap like a slur from what I've heard?
Are we sure to have it in.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Angry babby
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The "What Do You Mean, It's for Kids?" part seems silly because there's no way this 2010 Western kids' show was referencing an anime meme I only learned about in the past few years. It's Accidental Innuendo and nothing more. Can't speak on whether it's a meme or not though.
We've had a lot of discussions over whether it's a slur or not. From what I can tell it's also a Broken Base in the anime fandom.
Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 17th 2021 at 8:02:53 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Otaku
Clean up the parts that mention 'Trap' as in insulting term. Search the editor who placed those terms on those pages.
i'm at the combination she and it
i consider it a slur, but i know some trans women have reclaimed it or don't consider it one, so i left it at "controversial".
i dug through the history and found that CommanderVisor is the one who added most of these initial examples. they aren't editing in bad faith, at least, since all of their other examples are valid.
Edited by NoUsername on Apr 17th 2021 at 8:12:55 AM
"Trap" as a term for crossdressers (and subsequently trans women misgendered as male crossdressers) has a much longer history than a few years.
The show probably did not intend it this way though, innuendo jokes were likely aimed for the BDSM angle of actual entrapment. At most I'd only leave the people angle of the word it as a factual mention in memetic mutation, with clarification that it is not a nice fun thing, just a thing that did happen.
Edited by Adannor on Apr 17th 2021 at 3:30:51 PM
Redmess
From what I understand, trap is also used for porn where someone looks female until you see the male genitals, so generally for androgynous crossdressing characters. I wouldn't be surprised if this stems from the time when internet was so slow pictures took minutes to load, top down, so that the genitals would only show up in the last bit of loading, hence the "trap" bit (so basically, gotcha porn).
I think in those cases it's more about gay baiting than actual commentary on trans people, but it's not a stretch to see it as a slur for that as well.
And besides that, it is a rather lame joke meme that doesn't really have anything to do with the actual show, so it should be cut on that basis if nothing else.
Optimism is a duty.
My honest thought is "if we have to ask, better not to use it."
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
Yeah, best to err on the side of caution here and just delete it.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
i'm at the combination she and it
just did so, also deleted an unrelated Accidental Innuendo entry for lack of context
Aren't the characters in Equestria Girls minus Sunset, Pony!Twilight, Gloriosa Daisy, the Dazzlings and a few other adults all like 15? So lewding them is illegal. And Jessica from Dragon Quest is 16.
@The Krystal example: Got nothing against the Furry Fandom but that is way too much even for me. Krystal may be legal but the fact people would rather try to get "official porn" over their sexual fantasies... Reminds me of when I used to browse a Banjo Kazooie website where someone demanded a mod to make Tooty (who is like 9) naked. I wish I was joking.
Elsa could use some toning down too despite her being 21 (thanks Word of God).
Edited by Klavice on Apr 17th 2021 at 6:32:17 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
It is absolutely used on trans people and characters, with purpose and full awareness.
Even the cases of using male-identifying crossdressers as "gotcha" trolling is sketchy, as real life trans people get accused of trying to pull such a thing and it is used as arguments for defying them rights as well as openly a motivation behind numerous physical assaults.
In fiction, even when characters are very clearly and openly presented as trans women, portions of internet culture still try to slap the "trap" on them.
Yeah remove that. If it is a slur, we shouldn't be using it. On the Noble Bigot page for the quote it uses a slur for Asian people. I think we could probably change that.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 17th 2021 at 6:36:50 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
No Username already did the deletions, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
For the Noble Bigot though, direct quotes from the source are generally exceptions.
kiby :]
And it does have "bigot" in it, so it's only natural to show its bigoted-ness.
Edited by ATricksterArtist on Apr 17th 2021 at 9:51:01 AM
(Don't) take me home.
Angry babby
Regarding Equestria Girls: I think they're written to be juniors/seniors, so I assume they're 17-18. Nobody should be "lewding" them on this wiki either way, but it's not at the level where we can't note if there's legit fanservice or something (though I'm hard pressed to believe there's really that much, even in a show with that kind of fandom).
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Redmess
They're supposed to be around 16, yes. Which means it makes it really questionable that Twilight, who is most certainly an adult as a pony, is dating Flash, who is equally implied to be 16.
Oops. Writers apparently didn't think about that implication. That's what you get when you try to force a high school romance onto a character who is too old to have one.
Optimism is a duty.
You have evidence for them being about 16?
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
Redmess
Well, there only seems to be circumstantial evidence, but they are implied to be seniors in some imagery, so for the US that would be 17-18. But it's also not entirely clear what year Flash is in.
Optimism is a duty.
Angry babby
They're apparently not quite seniors but are around 16-17, so probably juniors. Trivia.My Little Pony Equestria Girls cites some Word of God entries about it (I remember because someone threw a stink trying to remove them for some reason). Either way, not young enough that it'd trip our radar for there to be canon fanservice, but again, we don't really want people being lewd about the Equestria Girls anywhere on the wiki regardless of age.
Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 18th 2021 at 2:21:41 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
The subfranchise is aimed at teen girls anyway, so I doubt the possibility for fanservice.
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
Redmess
Well, that's the thing, the Twilight/Flash relationship is supposed to be canon, and is a major part of the first movie's plot. And it definitely makes Twilight look inadvertently creepy for dating a minor.
I'm not sure how we should handle this. It's not even really a fandom thing. This is a problem with the work itself, so arguably it shouldn't be on the YMMV page.
Optimism is a duty.
I think any example that doesn't focus on the male fanbase, as opposed to just gushing about hot female characters, should just be cut as misuse.
Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 13th 2021 at 12:16:11 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.