Split and/or Create Supertrope: Zettai Ryouiki

This makes a lot of sense.

That's been said before. -_-

Well excuuuuuuse me, ccoa.

Damn, you didn't say princess!

It's rather aggravating to have people come in in the end stages of a TRS and argue against the proposed change without having actually read the preceding arguments. There's no reason that we should have to be repeating ourselves.

edited 9th Jul '12 12:32:08 PM by ccoa

Whoa, whoa. My objection was to the idea that the trope is about the symbolism and that the examples would have to fit the personality types to be part of the trope. If I misunderstood that as being part of the argument, then my bad, but no need to get hostile about it.

Excuse me...

I've been involved in three different TRS threads about Zettai Ryouiki, did you all feel the need to review the previous repair threads before starting this one? I think not.

I thought the last one was pretty definitive, and by the way involved this same argument about whether there was a personality or characterization trope here. I take a break for a few months and suddenly I'm no longer welcome in a discussion on the subject?

Shima, can you please site some source for this claim that the Grades symbolize something? I have never heard any of that.

Coca, yes it's a costume trope. Yes western examples and Asian examples are essentially the same thing. However, Asia has:

1: Combined two Western tropes (Knee High Socks and Mini Skirt) into a whole one package costume.

2: Given this specific costume trope a specific name (as opposed to Western languages which depend on describing the two elements of the look).

3: Add an idea of "grading" the look into different levels of "perfection"

4: Far more extensive usage of the trope

5: Far, far more likely to lampshade the look

Might I ask, what is particularly wrong with any of that?

Who exactly are these people who are offended by the tongue in cheek Serious Business description?

Look, I'm fine with having it as one trope with both Eastern and Western examples. I'm fine with splitting them on the grounds that audience reaction is different between eastern and western audiences (as evidenced by the Serious Business grading of Asia). I'd even be okay with making it a fanspeak page, although I think that a less optimal solution.

This page brings in a ton of inbounds, is informative, accurate, and witty. Why are we trying to preform major surgery on it, and make it more inaccurate, or less informative, or less witty? All of which are likely to attract less inbounds.

Understand I'm open to some adjustments that can improve it. I think splitting off the Hot Pants + Action Girl subtrope is perfectly reasonable, and would probably actually help. I always thought that those examples were kind of grafted on, and ZR usually does not actually refer to those type of costumes.

I'm open to splitting or not splitting between Eastern and Western, as frankly I don't see much benefit or harm either way.

I'm opposed to adding some personality symbolism to the grades because it's inaccurate, I've never seen that suggested elsewhere before. Never seen any evidence either. I mean, just look at who has ZR grade A in a show like Ranma One Half... Akane, Ranma... I'm not seeing that pattern there. We shouldn't be inaccurate, and people should not be upset with someone correcting an inaccuracy.

(For those unfamiliar with the show, Akane is about as sexually aggressive as a chastity belt, Ranma is a guy transformed into a girl who would be horrified as the idea of sex, and additionally when he wore it he was disguising himself as the long lost sister of another character- no sexual tension at all).

edited 9th Jul '12 7:58:37 PM by Sackett

I did the research months ago but I found multiple sources then. I am not going to go do the same research again after we've already voted and are just wrapping things up. If you wanted to interject, you should have come when we were talking about it and I had them at my finger tips. I don't feel like doing hours of media research again because one person isn't happy with how the crowners turned out.

We really need some sort of system to stop this kind of thing from happening.

Maybe we should start adding relevant points to a Sandbox and/or Useful Notes page so that we won't have to repeat ourselves? Because, really, it's nobody's fault if they miss it. You can't reasonably expect someone to be aware of every argument being made when topics tend to jump 5 - 10 pages a day here.

Why didn't you post them in this thread earlier?

I mean come on. Nobody was doing anything, so nothing has been changed yet, and then someone shows up to point out that the action being taken is inaccurate, and the response seems to be "Shut up!"

You want examples? Lets just look at the first 25 Zettai Ryouiki examples:

Shana: Grade A, is she the more sexually aggressive type? Oh wait, no she isn't. She's the What Is This Thing You Call "Love"? type. And in fact her romantic rival is the more aggressive one, (although that girl is innocent too).

Louise: Grade A, is she the sexually aggressive character? No, she the cock-blocking character. The more aggressive characters in Zero No Tsukaima are Kirche (who also wears grade A) and Siesta (who does not have ZR)

Taiga: Grade A, emphasized. Is she the sexually aggressive type? No, she's shy about romantic things. She's physically aggressive, in the sense she's likely to punch your lights out. Is she the most sexually charged character in Toradora? No that's Ami Kawashima who works as a model and is a big tease. She wears ZR occasionally, but not to the extent that Taiga does.

Aria H. Kanzaki: Haven't seen this show

Code Geass characters: A lot of characters listed, but most had grade B. I only saw the first season, so forgive me if they change in 2nd season. While CC might be considered sexually aggressive, Kallen can not. Sure the UST is thick, but that's because Kallen is a bit repressed.

Touka from Nogizaka Haruka No Himitsu: Haven't seen this show

Rion Akagami from Cage Of Eden: Not the sexually aggressive girl in the cast.

Lucky Star: Ayano Minegishi, Grade A - I don't think any of the girls in Lucky Star can be described as sexually aggressive, except Konata, maybe. Although I guess Ayano is the only one of them to have a boyfriend. Kagami is Grade S, and obviously not sexually aggresive. Konata is Grade A occasionally, and might be considered sexually aggressive (though it's more like she has no tact or shame). Yutaka is occasionally grade A, and she's the most innocent of the girls.

Mazinger Z: Haven't seen the show.

Minami-ke: Chiaki, grade A... and a precocious elementary school student. Occasionally Kana who might be grade S, depending on whether you interpret her as a Tsundere in denial or just Oblivious to Love (in which case she'd be grade A).

Pani Poni Dash!: Haven't seen the show.

Sola: Haven't seen.

Zombie Loan: Haven't seen.

Stellvia Of The Universe: Haven't seen

Azumanga Daioh: Yomi, grade A. The most normal girl, the Straight Man, Brainy Brunette, and certainly not sexually aggressive. Not even in comparison to the other girls.

Betterman: Haven't seen the show

Starship Operators: Haven't seen.

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Striker S: Haven't seen, but the example even points out that almost all the girl wear it at some point and that it's pretty much Fanservice. Implying that it's not there to symbolize characterization.

ARIA: Alice... yes the childish middle school girl who's a bit of a snarker... sexually aggressive? I think not.

Sisters Of Wellber: Haven't seen.

School Days: Haven't seen, but going by comments I'll grant you this one. Sexually aggressive girls are wearing ZR in School Days. Of course... it's part of the school uniform almost, and virtually all the girls are aggressive.

Madlax: Haven't seen.

Speed Grapher: Haven't seen.

Mahou Sensei Negima: Haven't seen

Vampire Knight: Haven't seen

Fruits Basket: Haven't seen

The only one that might match up with the idea that Grade A symbolizes a more sexually aggressive nature is School Days. (Infamous for not being a very normal show). Additionally there are several shows listed there that have multiple girls, some aggressive, some not, and Grade A does not correlate with the aggressive girl.

Others not listed above that have multiple girls include:

Ranma One Half (already mentioned earlier)

Love Hina: Naru is the grade A ZR wearer, not the aggressive girl.

Hayate The Combat Butler: Nagi is Grade S, Sayuka grade A, Hinagiku grade A occasionally, Isumi grade A occasionally. Only Sayuka might be given the attribute of an "aggressive" personality. again the grades do not correlate to any personality.

Soul Eater: Maka is Grade A, Blair is Grade A, so is Kim Dehil and Tsubaki. Blair is sexually aggressive, and Kim might be thought so as well. Maka and Tsubaki are not sexually aggressive.

Shima, there just no evidence I can see that the Grades symbolize differences in personality, well, not between A and B anyways (lower grades might, but then that's because those aren't ZR).

ZR as a whole is associated with innocent sexuality. Whether that means the girl is a tease, or she's oblivious to how she affects men, or she's scared by the way she affects men. But there are a whole range of personalities that have those attributes.

edited 10th Jul '12 5:32:44 AM by Sackett

You remember the adage about assumptions, right? I've participated in three TRS threads for this trope, and the one I didn't participate in I read (every post) immediately after it was linked. I should note that none of the people you are attacking actually started this thread.

No one said that. All I said was that it was common courtesy to read the thread first rather than us repeating the same arguments and having to summarize things for you.

No, they didn't. They took an existing Western trope which had already combined those two things and used it.

...And? Bathos was coined in England, does that make it a Western-only trope?

Which apparently mean next to nothing, according to you. If there's no meaning to the grades, what does this add to the trope that is functionally different?

I should note that the only reason we use the grades is that people apparently think it's creepy to state "over the knee socks and a short skirt with a gap" rather than a secret code for the same thing.

More popular in Japan != Japan-only trope.

I'm really not seeing how this makes it Japan-only.

The problem is that we voted and decided to make a supertrope that would cover the Western and non-symbolic Japanese cases. However, if there is no symbolism, then there is no need for a "In Japan" and "Everywhere Else" version of exactly the same trope. So we're left with the-trope-I-cannot-spell, which is written as though it were Japan-only, and that is a problem.

I don't care if we don't do the proposed rewrite, but if we don't, the trope still shouldn't stay as-is.

The fact that this keeps being the subject of misuse, squabbling, and edit wars, and keeps coming back to TRS, and that every time it comes to TRS, the discussion goes on for between 10 to 20 pages, says to me that we have not come to a satisfactory resolution.

From what I recall of the last debate (which I admit I didn't follow all that closely), it seems like people went 'round and 'round and 'round until exhaustion finally forced a compromise that satisfied no one, but had less objections that any other option. I'm not surprised to see that compromise didn't hold up. I haven't been following the debate all that closely this time either, but a broader solution definitely seems like the one thing that hasn't been tried yet.

As for the idea that one person's absence from the debate has ruined everything—that seems to go against the whole idea of consensus. No one person's opinion should be critical or indispensable.

I'm not saying my opinion is critical.

It's everyone else who didn't like what I had to say because it upset the apple cart. And so I've been getting a lot of flak that all boils down to: "Be quiet you. We already decided what to do, so how dare you come in now and point out that we're going to make the trope inaccurate."

All I'm saying is that I should not be labeled an invalid contributor just because I show up to the party late.

I am quite open to combining Eastern and Western examples if that is what people want. I'm fine with splitting them. I don't really care that about that.

My priorities are:

1: That we accurately reflect the way the trope is actually used, and what the term Zettai Ryouiki means.

2: I think the hyper Serious Business nature of the trope with the grades, and all that is actually a pretty defining part of the trope. It's probably one of the reasons our page is the prefered link when describing this trope. The fact that Western media doesn't hyper analyze or highlight this trope while Japan does, to me is a very interesting element, and is often interesting to others as well.

That suggests either splitting between Western and Eastern examples, or having the trope describe first the basic elements Knee socks, Mini Skirt, and the skin in between, and why it is enticing, and then spending the bulk of the remaining description explaining the Serious Business nature of the trope in Japan, including the grades, the exact "golden ratio", "innocent sexuality," and the all around obsession Japanese media has with this trope.

3: I think maintaining the name in some fashion is actually somewhat important, as I figure that is a major reason for getting in bounds. Someone uses the term somewhere and then somebody wants to know what it means. Our page is currently the best description of it I've seen anywhere on the English speaking part of the web.

Another possible solution would be to do something like we did for Cute Clumsy Girl and Dojikko. One page has all the examples, while the other provides a description, and explains why Japan is so obsessed with this trope compared to the West.

I am open to solutions that address these concerns, and I feel I'm pretty flexible about how to handle it. I just don't think we should implement something that is inaccurate or removes information that is attracting visitors and inbounds.

edited 11th Jul '12 5:45:43 AM by Sackett

Is this to be The Same But Japanese as Golden Thigh Ratio?

No, the Japanese form has specific grades for each not-sock-covered-leg lenght that have to do with personality. Golden Thigh Ratio is plain fanservice.

No they don't. There are no specific personalities matched up with specific grades. There is a general overall "innocent sexuality" associated with Zettai Ryouiki. Think The Ingenue In Japan, expect lots of Coy, Girlish Flirt Pose.

Also, Golden Thigh Ratio is derived from the Japanese concept of Zettai Ryouiki, as only the Japanese have actually mathematically calculated the "prefect ratio" (4:1:2.5) of skirt to thigh to knee sock.

We were looking for a more searchable/typeable name, so we used the Greek classical art concept of the Golden Ratio, and combined it with the Japanese mathematical obsession with thighs to get the term Golden Thigh Ratio.

As far as I can tell there is no conception of a "perfect ratio" in the Western version of this trope. Just the basic idea of knee socks with a mini-skirt, and showing a bit of skin around the thigh.

Thus Golden Thigh Ratio is Zettai Ryouiki, there is no difference between them. If we want a separate Western trope we would need a new name for it because Golden Thigh Ratio would be incorrect.

See this Anime Deshou Deshou article for details and illustrations◊ of the various ranks.

This used to be on the page. But then it was moved to Analysis page, because it was argued that this belonged better there. For some reason the Analysis page was then blanked and locked.

edited 14th Jul '12 9:48:49 AM by Sackett

As was pointed out upthread, the idea that there is an ideal - higher stockings while still showing skin - was pointed out in Western media prior to Anime even existing as a medium.

So, while the precise ratio may be Japanese, the concept that there is a ratio is not.

edited 15th Jul '12 8:58:48 AM by ccoa

This is totally non sequitur but Sock Gap is an awesome redirect.

Bump here. Two questions:

• This is stuck at the YKTTW stage, right?
• Examples that fit the Zettai Ryouiki scheme but not the personalities, where do they go? Still in ZR, in the supertrope or down the drain?

I'm not sure if we're stuck at the YKTTW phase or if the YKTTW is not needed. We have an objection to the solution that, if born out, makes the YKTTW not needed.

The questions seem to be:

• Are there personalities associated with the ratios?
• Is Golden Thigh Ratio really an appropriate name for the fanservice supertrope?

These are the critical questions here, it seems.

Now, while my lack of exposure to Japanese media doesn't allow to comment effectively (outside of stating that Google seems rather ambiguous on the personality question), I've noticed these exposed legs on most images from Japan from my pre-TV Tropes times.

Oh, and I notice that the German Wikipedia page on the subject cites us as a source

...these exposed legs?

OK, after doing a bit of Google-fu I tracked down Analysis Zettai Ryouiki, which has some info on the personalities. It also links to another site which tells about a personality association.

The old discussion said that Grade A is often associated with tsunderes. There is also this. Maybe that is the personality?

Something that I noticed is that Google-ing for Zettai Ryouiki with "personality symbolism" gives mostly TV Tropes results.

Yes, the main issue seems to be whether personality matters here.

edited 1st Aug '12 9:38:51 AM by SeptimusHeap

Sorry if I am coming in on this a bit late...

But I do have a few questions, what exactly is the the trope at the current moment? Yes, I did read the first page but couldn't seem to find what the exact problem was. Either that, or I couldn't understand it. I have an idea on what it is, but just want to be sure if it is correct.

My second question, what so far is the purposed change? Okay, I'll admit it, I read the first page and then skipped to the end. So I may have missed what the change is.

Based on what I see at the top of this little box as I type this, the discussion is about whether or not Zettai Ryouiki should be split into different subtropes or be a supertrope. Is that correct?

Bump.