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Headscratchers / The Legend of Zelda: Oracle Games

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  • Anyone else think Oracle of Seasons' overworld map resembles the map from the original Zelda?
    • That and all the bosses are the same! I understand OoS was originally going to be a remake of the original game, but those plans didn't get very far.
    • Yeah, that's the case. OoS was supposed to be the first game and an unmade third game (left alone because of problems with the password system) was supposed to be the second game.


    Third game 

  • So if there was a third game; do you think maybe Farore would have been a painter, and the villain would kidnap her, the Oracle of Secrets, and then transform the world into Morrowind or a modern-day FPS game while Link had to gather the essences of colour (ROYGBIV plus something like pink maybe) to restore the world back to its natural and colourful state?
    • I didn't think about it before, but now I wish they did that :(
    • Actually it was suppose to be Naryu's game with color, it was called Oracle of Light and would deal with the 6 pieces of the rainbow of color in also traveled between a Light World and a Dark World...


  • How did Twinrova come back to life?
    • Well, they did seem to Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence in Ocarina, so... Maybe they're not really "dead" and the goddesses let them just come back for some reason.
    • Seeing as the Oracle games take place in the Decline timeline, their deaths simply might not have happened that time around. After all, the sages that sealed away Ganon in OOT seem to be different ones than the ones in ALTTP (it's hard to believe the former all having Hylian descendants) — Link may have never even met Koume and Kotake in this timeline.
    • Or Link did meet and kill them, but after Link was then killed, Ganondorf revived them sometime before he finally was sealed. Probably because he thought they might be useful at some point. Which they were, sorta.
    • The Hero of Time is implied to have lost during the final battle of OOT in the Decline Timeline, so Kotake and Koume would be already dead. Then again, it's not like resurrection is impossible in the Zelda series, and it seems to be within Ganondorf's ability to do this sort of thing when he has the Triforce of Power (Volvagia in OOT is an old dead dragon he revived). There's also the possibility that, since the series in general and the Oracle games specially are very fond of the Legacy Character trope, this is simply a different incarnation of the witches, who Ganon took under his wing later.


  • Hyrule Historia marks these games as a sequel to A Link to the Past, and for the most part, the games themselves suggest the same thing. However, implication suggests that the Lv. 2 sword (Noble Sword) and Lv. 3 sword (Master Sword) are one and the same, in different stages of power. It is also heavily implied of both that this is the very same Master Sword seen in many other Zelda games. So... how did it get from Hyrule to Holodrum/Labrynna?
    • of special note, it's found sitting in a pedestal in Holodrum, in a place called the Lost Woods. Geographically speaking, if it was the same place as in Alttp, then Link would have been in Holodrum all along.
    • The Lost Woods have always had strange teleporting abilities.
    • Alternatively, it is a broken sword given to you in the distant past in Labrynna. The previous owner states that it was given to them by "the legendary hero". If The Hero of Time broke the Master Sword and gave it to someone, how does Link find it in A Link to the Past?
    • This troper sees it in one of two ways. Either A: The Master Sword in Oracles Isn't canon. or B: The Holodrum/Labyrina Master Sword is not the same Sword of Evil's Bane. After all the design slightly differs on the crossguard despite the Master Sword's design being concrete at that point.

    Ambi and Holodrum 

  • How is Ambi in Holodrum in the Linked Game? I mean, it's set in the Present...
    • Nayru can travel in Time...
    • Ambi explicitly states that she had Nayru send her into the future the first time she appears.

    Ralph's ancestry 

  • Ambi is still lovesick over someone who is revealed to be dead if you link from Ages to Seasons... so where did Ralph come from? Ralph is her descendant after all.
    • Maybe at some point Ambi married for political reasons, or she did get over her old lover.
    • Another possibility is that she was pregnant, or that she had already given birth and kept the child hidden.
    • Keeping an heir hidden wouldn't work, since then, there'd be no issue of Ralph disappearing if he tried to kill Ambi.


    Subrosia and Holodrum 

  • How Subrosia and Holodrum interact. On the one hand, the Temple of Seasons simply sinks into the ground and lands in Subrosia, implying it's simply a subterranean area underneath Holodrum. On the other hand, the Cap'n ship has its prow sticking out of the sand in the Holodrum desert and its aft sticking out of Subrosian ground, implying they're on opposing sides of a (rather thin) flat world...
    • There are two ways you could look at this; The first one is that both the Temple of Seasons and the Cap'n ship have portals below the ground that they've teleported through. In Cap'n case, his ship got stuck halfway through. The second idea is that if the worlds are indeed opposing sides, then the Temple of Seasons didn't land in Subrosia but rather rose from the ground.
      • ...but then wouldn't it be upside-down?
    • The Temple is stated to have fallen into Subrosia by the Subrosians themselves, so it definately dropped down. For that matter, you can trigger a volcanic erruption in Subrosia that reaches up to Holodrum later on. However, Subrosia's portals don't exactly obey normal space to begin with; the portals do not line up with each other or follow any kind of linear relationship in terms of position. My guess would be that the temple literally fell into the ground due to Onox's magic, whereas the pirates crashed through an entirely unrelated portal and ended up with their ship bridging across it. The temple is the one thing that doesn't follow the rules of the portals (step into a swirly hole in either world and pop up in the other), and was moved under different circumstances to begin with.

    Bad Future 

  • Why is the "Present" in Ages not a Bad Future? The Black Tower should have been completed in the past, giving Veran everything she needs to create her "Age of Shadow".
    • I assume Ages works on parallel time. Assuming the tower was never finished during Ambi's lifetime before Veran showed up and it was meant as a way to signal her lover, then the Bad Future will not happen until the tower has been completed and Veran has accomplished her "Age of Shadow".
    • Except stuff like the petrified kid and the Maku Tree getting Ret Gone happens instantly, so San Dimas Time isn't in effect for everything... I'm willing to accept that the Black Tower exists outside of time because magic or something, but in that case the other changes to the timeline should be staggered as well. That actually could have been interesting, if things start fine but the present progressively becomes more and more of a Bad Future, thus raising the stakes and heightening tension as you get closer to the climax...
    • Then it could be proportional to how big the change is. The Maku Tree and the kid being turned to stone (while I think that's magic instead of time shenanigans, I'll go with it here) is relatively minor and quick to change. The tower being built into Black Tower for darkness to consume the land? In the original timeline, Ambi never even got to finish the tower in her lifespan and it's originally meant for finding her beloved. Such a grand change in the timeline would probably take some time to happen.

      Alternatively, changes like the Maku Tree getting Ret Gone happen because that's how things will play out until someone is able to change its course, aka Link. The Black Tower is something that is left undetermined until it succeeds given its massive change in course. That being said, maybe the fact that it hasn't changed is saying Link has already won...

    Veran's possession 
  • One: Why does she never try to possess Link? She chooses the queen she was able to control indirectly anyway over the one person who managed to defeat her (and who is a One-Man Army besides), really? Neutralizing Link seems like the far smarter option, tactically. My only guesses for this one are either that she can only possess women, or that the Triforce of Courage protects Link somehow.
  • Two: Why can't she just re-possess Nayru after Link breaks the possession?
    • She does. He just backflips out of the way. As for the latter, probably too thrashed to pull it off again, or anticipating that trying it would just result in another Mystery Seed to the face. Probably the latter, since she goes for Link as soon as she's banished from Ambi.
    • Ah, I forgot about the endgame possession attempt. But that just makes it more confusing — why didn't she try that the first time? And while it would just result in Link blasting her again, his stock of mystery seeds (and his health) is limited, while Veran can presumably keep up the possession indefinitely. Plus the guards had already arrived when Veran possessed Ambi — re-possessing Nayru at that point would have spelled certain doom for Link and Ralph. Perhaps we can hypothesize that she can only attempt to possess people once (since she doesn't try again after Link dodges in the final battle).
    • Link doesn't have any real power that she can make use of. Nayru can manipulate time (and possibly do other things) with her magic, and Ambi is a queen with hundreds of loyal followers. She didn't try to possess Link because he doesn't have any real way to influence events in her favor.

    Why didn't Nayru bring Veran into the future? 
  • After the Climax Boss against Veran-possessed Nayru in Ages, Veran jumps hosts to Ambi, and Nayru rescues the heroes by teleporting them into the future. Why didn't she bring Ambi with them? Bringing Veran into the future would end her evil plot then and there, and she would then be free for another smackdown without the guards to protect her. The fact that Ralph and Link are so close to her when she casts the spell implies she has to be right next to people to travel with them, but she still couldn't have, I don't know, run up to Ambi?
    • Leaving her in the past at least ensures that the heroes know where she is and that she won't be able to go anywhere else without Nayru in the same time period. Bringing her back to the present runs the risk of her possessing Nayru again and using her power to travel to a different point in Labrynna's history, where Link and Ralph won't know where she is.

    How does Ralph travel through time? 
  • The time portals are inactive without the Harp of Ages. Ralph does not have the Harp. How does he manage to follow Link through time?
    • Ralph travels to the past at the beginning of the game through the first portal opened by Veran, the same one Link travels through before he's received the Harp of Ages. While Link eventually returns to the future and receives the Harp of Ages to travel through time, Ralph never does and simply remains in the past. If you pay attention, you never see Ralph in the future until the ending when presumably Nayru returned him to his own time.
    • Ralph stays in the past until the sixth dungeon is completed (Nayru brings him to the Present along with herself and Link after Veran possesses Ambi). After that point, he can presumably travel between the ages freely, as Nayru is with him.

    Link's age 
  • Just how old is Link supposed to be? According to Word of God, this is after he's already had one adventure, and he looks to be adult height in cutscenes, but everyone refers to him as "boy" or "kid", even characters who presumably aren't using it as a diminutive or insult.
    • Mid-late teens, maybe? That gives him enough time to have gone on a previous adventure while still being a kid.
    • Even someone in their early twenties could be called "kid," especially if they have a youthful appearance (and Hylians tend to).

    Could Twinrova have used the Triforce? 
  • A Link to the Past shows that the Triforce is capable of resurrection, so why don't Twinrova try to assemble it to resurrect Ganon? My only guess is that they know that trying to assemble the Triforce usually ends badly.
    • ...Wasn't the Triforce shown inside Hyrule Castle at the start of the game? How would Twinrova have gotten her hands on it?
    • The same way everyone else does? Hyrule Castle isn't invincible (quite the opposite, if anything). If Agahnim could infiltrate it, I doubt that would be outside their capabilities. I suppose you could Fan Wank something about Hyrule Castle being on high(er) alert after the whole Agahnim business, but it still seems odd that they never even considered it when almost every other Zelda villain has.
    • Maybe, but it is basically invincible when its inhabitants have the power of the gods at their disposal and are fully capable of using it. And this is assuming that Twinrova would know where the Triforce was.
    • It's probably a lot harder for two elderly Garudo women who are known to work for Ganon to infiltrate Hyrule Castle than it would be for a human-looking stranger who offers hope in a dark time.

    Veran's weakness 
  • Why doesn't Link tell anyone about Veran's weakness to mystery seeds after the Nayru fight? It's pretty important information for Ralph. And to pre-empt the obvious counterargument, it's obvious that he's not literally mute. Does Link just hate Ralph?
    • Presumably nobody else is holding onto a Switch Hook.
    • It would still be courteous to let Ralph know he doesn't have to Grandfather Paradox himself to save the world.
    • Mystery Seeds don't prevent that on their own. The posessed body sleeps and Veran's shadow form is briefly manifested, but she counts as being "inside" them for the sake of being hit. You can't damage her without first using the Switch Hook, which likely can't be easily duplicated or replaced.
    • But Ralph has a habit of showing up, saying something, and then running off before anyone can try to talk him out of it. He's a bit of a Leeroy Jenkins like that, so even if Link wanted to say "Dude, Mystery Seeds and Switch Hook", Ralph has run off screaming "NAYRU!!!". And by the time Link knows that Ralph has Royal Blood and is about to run facefirst into the Grandfather Paradox, Ralph has already run off into the Black Tower. The next time Link sees Ralph is the first time anyone actually gets to talk to Ralph, and it's Veran, who has good reason to not reveal her weakness, doing the talking. The only time I remember that Link is really implied to say anything to Ralph is right before entering the palace, when the question of how Ralph knows about the secret passage comes up, and even that might just be from a strange look.

     Rosa and Crescent Island 
  • In a linked gamed from Seasons to Ages, Rosa first appears in the past version of Crescent Island even though she is from the present. How did she get into the past?
    • Likely the same way Maple did.
    • The implication seems to be some of the echo portals were opened up by accident, letting things get displaced.

     Veran's plan 
  • Forgive me if I've missed something — I've only just started the game — but Veran's plan in Oracle of Ages seems a bit confusing to me. She possesses Nayru and travels back through time, where she manages to hijack a heartbroken queen, convincing her to use an endless day a tower, which somehow will cause enough sorrow and despair to bring Veran's goal to fruition? Not only does that not make much sense (to me), but why does Veran bother with something so specific in the first place?
    • Veran created an endless day, making the workers work non-stop. The day itself never ended but people still felt the flow of time (hence why the post man knew he had to make deliveries). People were upset at their loved ones being away so long (and in some cases being dragged away) to work on the tower. It changed from the symbol of a heartbroken queen's hope for her lover into a tyrant's symbol of oppression and forced labor.
    • This in turn led to sorrow and depression from The workers themselves and The families and loved ones of the workers (One woman quotes how her Husband had been taken to work on the tower saying she may never see him again.) Which wasn't so much as Veran's plan as her role in the plot for Twinrova's Flame of Sorrow, which was fueled by the peoples sadness from these horrible changes and events.
  • I assumed there was something in the design or makeup of the tower that would provide Veran with more of the "powers of shadow".

     When you wish upon a triangle... 
  • So Impa was sent by Zelda to collect the two Oracles and bring them to Hyrule, where they'd be safe from danger. But the Triforce is inside Hyrule Castle as of both games' beginnings — why not just use it to wish them there and save Impa and Link all the trouble?
    • The Triforce seems to be actively manipulating events, such as sending Link to the Oracles itself. It might simply not have accepted wishes. Also, since it is never used to imediately solve all problems instantly when it's assembled, it is likely that there is an unknown rule to what wishes it can grant and when.

  • What exactly is up in terms of Impa's design and character? In every game that came before and since these two, she's either a wise old woman who imparts her knowledge to Link or Princess Zelda's younger, more proactive protector. Yet in both of the Oracle titles, she appears as a middle-aged woman with a very...unconventional body type, who doesn't seem to actually do anything beyond introducing Link to the quest he has to go on and then leaving it to him to fulfill it. Was there really such a need to include her when that's all she ended up doing?
    • Considering the games were originally going to be a Remake of Zelda 1. This is probably a callback to that considering Impa only appeared in the games Manual and not the game itself. Otherwise She does hold relevance as she's the earliest hint to Zelda's presence in the games (Linked ones anyway). Plus in Linked games She specifically say's that She was trying to smuggle the Oracles into Hyrule.
This can be more seen in Seasons Linked where the Troupe are revealed to be Hyrulian Knights in on the ruse.

     Why Seasons then Ages? 
  • Ages to Seasons closes more plot hooks (Ambi meeting her lost love and getting closure with him for one), so why is Ages the second? Ambi will never know what happened!
    • The official timeline seems to list the two of them together, but Ages is actually given first.
    • For the record, Hyrule Historia's timeline page never truly lists them one after the other, just together as a duology in alphabetical sequence (Ages/Seasons). And the main reason Ages is considered to be the second half of the story is because of its end credits, which depicts Link sailing away from Labrynna on a boat. The next entry in the timeline after these two games is Link's Awakening, which starts off with the same Link
in a boat.
  • Actually the scene with the boat happens in both games via Linked save file. There is neither a right or wrong way for the story to be told. While Ages>Seasons makes more sense I.E The Ambi subplot getting payoff. The Master Sword (assuming you upgraded your sword to level 2 Via secret) is in it's usual place of the lost woods (Albeit this troper doesnt think it's the same Master Sword). The Seasons>Ages route is probably considered "Canon" due to that's the route the Manga took. (Though I personally feel the build up of shit hitting the fan is better with the latter, Compare Onox not showing up again till the end of the game To The black tower arc (and by default Veran) being made worse with each passing dungeon.)
  • I assumed it was just by analogy with Pokémon Red and Blue, with Seasons being red and Ages being blue.
     Its a trap-errr ceremony! 
Anyone else somewhat weirded out by Patch?

Now I can get past the whole "Old man living alone on a cliff" thing as there's another bloke doing the same thing on the exact same mountain and it's a common story trope in media. But there seems to be something rather devious about the man.

The fact he nearly calls his "Restoration Ceremony" a Trap. (To quote: "My Trap-err Ceremony.") Somewhat suggests that behind that goofy exterior that The Restoration Guru is a evil little bastard. Though that begs the question as to how it's a trap, since the shell beetles don't actually hurt you (providing they don't shove you down a hole). I feel there was going to be something else originally but the Dev's scrapped it and kept the "Trap" line in as an in-joke.

And more to point Why wasn't he the holder for the Mirror Shield secret instead of the library? It would of made much more sense that way.


Example of: