Main Bishonen Discussion

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Lyner
Topic
08:22:28 AM Oct 5th 2014
Should there not be two or more "types" of Bishounen? I've read several tropes, and the term seems to be used for two distinct character types, both prevalent in shoujo and Yaoi. The first, the one best described here, has Tareme Eyes, is extremely effeminate, really cute, and tends to also take on relationship characteristics classically associated with girls, thus tending toward Uke.

The other type tends to have Tsurime Eyes or a Clint Squint, is somewhat more masculine in appearance, and is particularly characterized by the cold, aggressive and dominating Seme-type appearance. This type is often arrogant and suave to creepy levels. I've seen many in this B type grab a woman, look deep into her eyes, and suddenly the woman loses all ability to say no, even if she hates him with all her soul. This type often leans toward Bastard Boyfriend, but as I said, one look tends to make everything consensual, no matter how much the girl hates him.
theadeptrogue
Topic
06:01:29 PM Aug 13th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
The main page defines "Bishonen" as a term for Pretty Boy in East Asian Media. If there's really no other distinction between the two tropes, why should they remain separate? I mean, Kuudere is listed as a fanspeak term for Sugar and Ice Personality since they are not too distinguished, and thus the former page have no examples. The same goes for the distaff counterpart of this trope, Bishojo. So why should Bishonen be any different? It seems to be thrown around for any guys that appears youthful and hot anyway.
phylos
04:58:39 PM Sep 13th 2014
edited by 190.96.181.187
That confuses me as well. I actually find it a little racist to have a trope that is pretty much "Pretty Boy but for eastern people"... For that matter, that's what the laconic entry in Bishonen says. O.o
madgodzulcan
10:19:12 PM Sep 13th 2014
There are quite similar, but i'm pretty sure there is a subtle difference but I can't remember it... It might be more Dude Looks Like a Lady for Bishonen while a Pretty Boy is still more clearly masculine.
SeptimusHeap
12:37:50 AM Sep 14th 2014
The difference is to some degree in cultural baggage. Also, it plays into the Japanese/non-Japanese trope divide that has created some serious debates in the past, which is why people are reticent at reopening it. There was discussion on the other discussion page.
MithrandirOlorin
Topic
06:43:50 PM Mar 2nd 2013
It seems to me this is clearly the Spear Counterpart of Bifauxnen, but it isn't mentioned as such in the main description, usually the Counterparts are listed.
kraas
Topic
10:47:07 PM Jan 25th 2013
Can a bishonen also be muscular? Or is being androgynous a requirement?
Telcontar
02:57:30 AM Jan 26th 2013
I believe being androgynous is a requirement; bulky muscles would disqualify them.
MithrandirOlorin
06:32:57 AM Mar 3rd 2013
In which case i think Tidus is a little to muscular to count.

Also Mello in Death Note seems to wear shirts that in live action only a Muscular Upper bodied fellow would wear.
MayukaHoward
Topic
09:08:22 AM Oct 14th 2012
Hey, how we can forget about half of the Inazuma Eleven cast?
GFR2K10
Topic
09:05:40 PM Jun 19th 2011
edited by GFR2K10
Wasn't there a Real Life subsection for this page just a little while ago? What happened to it? If someone just up and deleted it I would say that that is pretty unacceptable behavior and it should be restored at once.

EDIT: Oh, it's in Troper Tales now. That's a relief. Never mind then.
71.60.92.92
Topic
07:42:53 PM Jan 23rd 2011
Because I'm too lazy to make an account (and will probably mess something up horribly), does anyone feel like putting Axios from the DS game The Glory of Heracles in there? He talks about how pretty he is all the time. The unnamed protagonist would probably fit the bill, too.
Kersey475
Topic
09:04:33 AM Jan 20th 2011
Continuing the discussion from the top of the page. We need an alternate title for English speakers. I propose, "Beautiful Boy".
Ingu
Topic
11:25:28 PM Nov 5th 2010
Um... the current title. Bis Honen? Shouldn't it be Bi Shonen...?
Sparkysharps
02:02:11 AM Nov 6th 2010
It's neither. It's a single word.
ShivaIndis
Topic
07:44:08 PM Nov 5th 2010
edited by ShivaIndis
This article should be titled Bishonen Plus Model Hot Dudes In Thier Twenties.
MarqFJA
Topic
12:15:43 PM Sep 18th 2010
edited by MarqFJA
Would I be correct in my assumption that this trope is mutually exclusive by definition with Perma Stubble and Carpet of Virility?
SomeGuy
01:27:38 PM Sep 18th 2010
Yes.
MarqFJA
03:30:35 PM Sep 18th 2010
edited by MarqFJA
Not even counting for 20-something-year-old Biseinen? Or even (optionally Rated M for Manly) Badass Biseinen?

What would be a typical Biseinen look, anyway?
Sparkysharps
09:09:05 PM Sep 18th 2010
The guy we have up for Seme is usually what your typical Biseinen looks like. Typically, they're just as clean-shaven as their teenage counterparts.
MarqFJA
11:39:43 PM Sep 18th 2010
edited by MarqFJA
Okay, Perma Stubble is definitely out. Is there no way to combine Biseinen with Carpet of Virility?

And do Rated M for Manly Biseinen exist?
Sparkysharps
12:02:30 AM Sep 19th 2010
edited by Sparkysharps
Considering how hard it is to find anime guys with chest hair at all, I'm presuming that it's never really happened in any professionally made series.

As for Rated M for Manly bishonen/biseinen, those actually do exist, in a certain manner. The strategy seems to be to make them bishonen in appearence while hypermasculine, Hot-Blooded, and over-the-top in character (ie. Shizuo Heiwajima, Dante, and a number of Sengoku Basara guys would be rough examples of this)
MarqFJA
01:13:17 AM Sep 19th 2010
edited by MarqFJA
The only one I recognize from those three is Dante, and I remember him having a Bruce Lee-like muscular build. I guess Biseinen can be leanly muscular.

Does Badass!Simon (from the final fights against the Anti-Spirals) count as a Rated M for Manly Biseinen?
Sparkysharps
03:06:02 AM Sep 19th 2010
edited by Sparkysharps
The "bishonen are skinny littler buggers" thing is as much a product Noodle People art conventions of shoujo as it is of "slender = androgynously beautiful." Bishonen/Biseinen outside of shoujo tend to be a bit more muscular (compare aforementioned Sengoku Basara characters, which demonstrate Bishonen Jump Syndrome like nobody's business, to those of Ouran High School Host Club.)

As for Simon, he's something of a weird case. Compared to bishonen in other series, Simon would be a straight up manly sort — But Gurren Lagann's art design is such a far cry from the "bishonen as default" style of many series that even the official pretty-boy character in GL (Rossiu) looks more masculine than one of the most manly characters of Code Geass (Jeremiah). The "Simon is a bishonen" case makes more sense when you see Gainax draw Simon in more typical anime styles (such as in the Sense of Wonder parallel works or sometimes in the official art books
MarqFJA
11:28:40 AM Sep 19th 2010
edited by MarqFJA
Yeah, but Simon is specifically stated in TTGL's main article and character sheet to become a Bishounen post-Time Skip. I saw his pre-Anti-Spiral Arc design, and I can definitely agree; the real question revolves around the dramatic change of his appearance after Nia's forced abduction to the Anti-Spiral homeworld, which is most clearly exhibited by Lagann-hen (it takes only less than a minute, even). It's listed in the CMOA page.
lebrel
09:58:19 AM Sep 20th 2010
Perma Stubble is allowed in small quantities (usually a bit on the chin or around the sideburn area). Usually more of a scruffy Soul Patch than "blue lower face".
flyingdutchman57
10:17:14 PM Dec 29th 2010
Here's a translation of bidanshi, which meaning is quite close to biseinen:

びだんし【美男子】 a handsome [good-looking] man

It says nothing about facial or torso hair, however, since Japanese are not as hairy as many Westerners, the amount of body hair that Westerners find manly or attractive can look freaky to Japanese, just like so called wolf men who are afflicted by hirsutism are usually not considered to be more manly and more attractive than regular men, and are usually considered to be freaks.
Sparkysharps
Topic
01:19:28 PM Sep 8th 2010
So... Anyone have the patience to make an image links page for this (courtesy link)? It's kind of screaming for one right now.
SomeGuy
02:26:21 PM Sep 8th 2010
I bluified it, so hopefully we'll get some pictures now.
BadHorse
Topic
04:20:58 AM Apr 15th 2010
Is it possible to make it law to link to pictures in the examples? It seems a bit off to have a trope about appearance to have over half the examples with no pictures at all.
Sparkysharps
11:41:19 AM Apr 18th 2010
edited by Sparkysharps
Every other appearance-based trope doesn't require each example to have a picture, and I don't see how this one would be any different. Still, it probably would be a good idea to set up an Image Links Wiki for this page.
Kersey475
Topic
10:23:08 AM Mar 30th 2010
I propose "Girly Man" as an alternate title for English speakers.
lebrel
11:53:17 AM Mar 30th 2010
I'd go with the direct translation, "beautiful boy". The traditional bishounen is more androgenous than girly.
ChaoticDreams
02:22:10 PM Mar 31st 2010
edited by Maven
What happened to most of the examples on the page. They were deleted.

— Somebody wiped all the Real Life examples. I don't know whether this was because "there's no such thing in real life", or because the examples were getting too nebulous and/or controversial.
Seikai
02:27:00 PM Mar 31st 2010
Looks like a troll. I'm not all that familiar with the original page, so I'm not quite sure where everything went originally.
Sparkysharps
02:32:55 PM Mar 31st 2010
Judging by the formatting errors and the page history (as well as the lack of any sort of malicious looking additions), I'm guessing it was an editing error. Anyways, it reverted most of the page. Anyone else is welcome to check for what I missed.
85.6.230.72
09:59:26 PM Dec 29th 2010
edited by flyingdutchman57
This girly man translation is completely off. First off, in the modern Japanese langague, the word shônen refers only to young boys, who aren't adults.

As for the girly part, I checked some Japanese- English dictionaries online, here's what I found as translations for bishônen:

びしょうねん 美少年 a handsome (young) boy; a good‐looking young man.

美少年

読み方:びしょうねん

(名詞) handsome youth

And what I found for bishôjo :

びしょうじょ 美少女 a beautiful [pretty, good‐looking, lovely] (young) girl.

The translations are from ejje dot weblio dot jp

Notice how bishônen is translated as meaning good looking/ handsome boy/youth, while bishôjo is translated as meaning pretty/ good-looking/ lovely girl.

Note: In the past, before the word bishôjo was invented around a 100 years ago, the word shônen (usually refers to boys ages 6 to 18 nowadays), and bishônen were used for children and teenagers of -both- genders, the original meaning of shônen being youth, not boy.
Stoogebie
09:47:48 PM Dec 31st 2011
FYI: First of all, "bishonen" translates essentially to "pretty boy". If you would describe them as "pretty boy," they are this trope. Bishonen can't be "boy who looks like a girl" or "girly boy" because...what the hell does that mean for Bifauxnen? "Girl who looks like a boy who looks like a girl"?! Then technically, she would...look like a girl.

This is a supertrope, isn't it? I think we ought to remove the Pretty Boy page, talk to Fast Eddie, and ask him about this.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Main.Bishonen