Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

How about fanon!Draco? I don't think there's really enough reason to suggest it in the books or the movies though...

Sparkysharps: we actually have another trope for that...
Isn't this trope somewhat subjective? To This Troper it seems that it's a matter of opinion more than anything else...

Sparkysharps: I think it's more afflicted by a crazy amount of Square Peg, Round Trope / You Keep Using That Word. I mean, it's supposed to be a pretty specific aesthetic of androgynous, long-limbed, barely-legal  * pretty boys. There probably is some subjectivity in terms of characters that are on the fence (mostly in shows that don't really skew towards bishies. Sometimes a character mostly seems bishonen because he's surrounded by muscle-bound manly men. Case in point: Trunks), but it's more of the term being spread too thin. That's the only way I can explain Brad Pitt's former presence on this page.
SpiriTsunami: An example of How Not To Make Wiki Words: The trope listing on the Yu-Gi-Oh page has this trope's title rendered as Bi Shonen. Seriously. So much wrong with that.
Citizen: I swear, if there was a good way to shrink this image and preserve clarity of subtitles, I'd post it.
From Bishonen Boy Discussion:

Since there's an Entry for Bifauxnen, isn't Bishonen a little redundant sounding?

Ununnilium: Yeah. It should really just be "Bishounen", since the definition is "beautiful boy".

Looney Toons: By all means change it if it's desired. But gimme a break — it was literally one of the first anime trope entries I created, two or more years ago when I adopted the then-empty page, and I was going more for the fun sound than the scientific rigor thing.

Citizen: I'm a bit late on the scene, but I agree that this trope should be renamed to "Bishounen".

Seth: I'm for that *invokes the most evil of tools*

This troper is unsure whether most of the real life examples really count, do they really look 'girly'? Perhaps this troper is just a poor judge of it.

Susan Davis: Yuuichi is not a bishonen! I'm sure we can find a more characteristic picture....

Seth: Probably, but in that scene he was parodying bishonen. Problem is there are so many straight examples i dont know where to get a better picture. (And you have to admit this one brings the funny). I mean do we get them from Ouran, Kyou Kara Maou or The Wallflower for a group picture or a single character from another series.

If you go for a group picture i think one of the ones from The Wallflower (Possibly This one)

Citizen: Aren't all the one's on that external pic... women? I'm sure you could find decent examples from Ouran, but I like having a bishie Yuuichi here. =/

Ununnilium: I think this picture fits really well, even if the character in question isn't usually bish.

Seth: As Unu said in the Tagline Discussion sometimes a parody is better for our purposes than an original since it looks at the trope on a critical level. No the Wallflower guys are guys they look feminine though - which is one of the definitions of Bishi. The Ouran pic you posted is a little grainy. Ive noticed this a few times. The pictures you post are good but you should spend a little longer looking for higher quality pictures (For example the Mikuru one on Moe is a scan. You could get an identical much higher quality picture from a screen cap of that scene.

I still think the Yuuichi image works best.

Citizen: Oh, hey, there's a Bishie Sparkle entry... I think the Kanon pic would go there, nicely... Meh, all of my Fruits Basket pics are sparkle pics, too.
Blue Byrd: I distinctly remember there being a number of example categories to this one besides the anime. Did we lose all of them in the crash, or did someone decide non-anime bishie was a contradiction in terms, and purge the entry accordingly?
Does Miles Edgeworth really qualify? Sure he's attractive, but in a decidedly masculine way (I've heard him described as "linebacker" at least once). The trope description uses the words "slender and androgynous", and he is definitely neither of those things.
Jisu: Tweaked the page so as to provide a more comprehensive point of view.
Vampire Buddha is on a tireless quest to pure natter from the wiki
** This troper found that the Foglios confirmed at Comic Con '08 that Maxim was designed as a bishie Jagermonster. This troper also nominates Maxim for EBB
  • Word of God or not, I still maintain that his personality disqualifies him. Where's the being achingly beautiful while staring off into space as the wind blows his hair around? Where's the melancholy smiles at interested girls? Why does he have so many personality traits unique to him? I tells ya, the guy has too much fun to be bishonen.

Andrew: Restored the X-Men: Evolution example as they were prettied up for that adaptation (especially Avalanche). Just look at any screenshot from the series. time=1231302739
Suggestion: Add the following line in the main description: "Technically speaking, a bishonen refers to a boy of under 18 years of age. A beautiful adult man is referred to as biseinen (although this distinction is not well known outside of Japan)." Or something along the lines.
Can someone explain to me why women are attracted to this trope?

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Simple. Bishonen are cute, just like kittens and teddy bears. Beauty Equals Goodness, and bishonen make good Fanservice. They aren't as threatening as manly men, and so they make good sympathetic characters for any age of animation.
  • Then why doesn't it work in real life? If guys everywhere start being pretty, girls still go after the "manly man."
    • Tell that to the J-rock fangirls.
    • It seems to be mostly a Japanese/anime thing, and to an extent, a teenybopper thing(just look at boy bands). Otherwise, most women still desire masculine men. Not to mention pretty boys are often assumed to be gay and are often mocked for their looks.
    • Not really their are lots of woman that like bishonen type men ,not just teenyboppers. Its partly a cultural thing though. Many Americans seem to have issues with feminine men. But in Japan pretty boys are ridiculously popular.

Sparkysharps: Okay, someone here is seriously unaware of the concept of Generic Cuteness, and is pretty much listing anyone and everyone that doesn't happen to be a Gonk. Does anyone besides me think that we need some major pruning here?

Crowley: As mentioned on the Square Peg, Round Trope page, people tend to think the definition of Bishonen is "hot Animesque guy." Pruning of unfitting examples would be nice...

Sparkysharps: I've been doing some, but I'm not familiar with all the works — not to mention that some people just keep putting them back.

This troper would like everyone to know that her name is Bishi. Life became difficult somewhere around seventh grade.


Medinoc: Saito is bishonen? O_o

Sousuke from Full Metal Panic!. Exactly how effeminate and Bishōnen he is depends on which media in the franchise, however. In the novels, it's implied numerous times that he's very pretty (including one instance in End Of Day By Day where it described him as a young, pale, small-built asian boy that even men would be attracted to). In the manga, he's very muscular and manly, and most people don't consider him to be a typical Bishōnen there. And in the anime, he's drawn to be quite pretty, and can definitely be considered a Bishōnen. This is taken to more of an extreme in the Sigma manga, where Ueda Hiroshi decided to make him have a very petite build, and look very pretty. But no matter which canon, you can't deny that he has very big and pretty eyes, and is definitely one of the more effeminate members of the main cast of males.

NCZ: Removed because after a discussion, it was decided that Sosuke is completely devoid of feminine qualities and didn't deserve a spot in the article.

lebrel: I want to point out that it's not an aspect of being bishounen that the character act effeminate in any way. They just have to be pretty in a clean-cut, clearly-adolescent way. The character design in the anime pictures linked above is pretty obviously designed to be the bishounen type, and I say return the paragraph to the page.

Also, to what extent is it legit to delete chunks of prior discussion off the discussion page? I assume it's done to keep the page from getting too big, but are there guidelines listed anywhere?

Seikai: Meh, since it's brought up again... just to go a bit further, for the people saying that Sousuke looked more "boy-ish" instead of Bishōnen inside the Sigma manga... it might be noteworthy that the way he's drawn, he looks almost identical to Kaname (and especially Mao) in many panels. (Sousuke vs. Mao. Nope, no similarities in looks to be found here.) The main difference is that Kaname and Mao occasionally have a few more eyelashes and have bigger boobs. And if anyone wants to say that that's just because Ueda Hiroshi draws women like men... then I can safely say that there are a lot of fanboys that would get pissed, considering how many of them I see fawning over the art of Kaname and Mao from that manga looking "hot."

Sparkysharps: Does anyone else think it's a good idea to prune down the Real Life examples to only examples that deliberately cater to this aesthetic (ie. Geisha guys and Visual Kei musicians)?

lebrel: No, why? It's not like there's no Western equivalent; boy bands, teen idols, and anything else sold to teen girls have tended to be "boyish" or "pretty" rather than manly, looks-wise, for decades now.