Discussion Characters / OverwatchOrganizations

Because an page dedicated to Overwatch is very useful, as Overwatch is a large organization at the center of the story that can only be expected to grow over time. That, and I find the bios for the characters on the actual pages to be lacking — here, it actually explains what they did in Overwatch without just copy/pasting from the Overwatch website.

Just imagine how big the Overwatch page is going to grow as time passes? There's already a lot to cover, so I think it was best for it to have its own page.

Lazer, you brought this up several times and no ine agreed with the idea. You are still trying to trope future events THAT HAVENT HAPPENED. You just decided to act upon something which no one in any discussion agreed with you on.

There's also difference between troping fir the purpose of this site, and just adding details for the sake of details.

No, it's not about that. Overwatch is massive, and there is still plenty to trope. I made a page for this for the same reason I made a page for organizations and NPCs — there's a lot that can be added and doing so might cause too much on one page. Also, I didn't add any tropes for things that haven't happened yet. This was so we could have as much detail regarding Overwatch as we can without having to worry about causing an overload on the page.

I didn't propose this idea, that was just the idea of adding two separate entries for Overwatch. This is giving Overwatch its own page. Also, you have to admit that the bios here are a lot better than just copy/pasting from the main website. I'm very happy with the result, and I think it looks really nice. I was very unsatisfied with what we had on Overwatch's folder — it just wasn't very detailed and hardly told us anything. We're barely scratching the surface on this.

Lazer, having "as much detail as we can" is a bad thing. That's what I've been trying to tell you for weeks now. Three words: Clear, Concise, Witty. In that order. The practice of the wiki is typically to have as LITTLE detail as possible while still getting across the basic gist of a specific trope. The proper attitude in this case would not be "Oh wow, there's a lot of detail about Overwatch. Let's create a new page to add more". It would be "Let's see what we can cut out or describe in shorter terms".

You're also splitting hairs now. You technically didn't do the original thing you proposed to do, but it's basically the same thing. You made a new page for Overwatch as an organization because YOU decided that there's eventually going to be need for a second page'. There's no need for one now, as you just admitted, but you made one for tropes that haven't happened yet. Even worse, you made entire FOLDERS for characters who have almost no tropes to their names.

More troubling though, is that you think "I wasn't satisfied with this" is a justification for making such a major change to a page. Any page is a community project, and with as much opposition you've had for making even SMALL contributions to a page, you should be more wary of making big changes without discussion. Instead, the way it looks right now, it very much seems like you've just decided arguing with us is "too tiresome" and so you're not going to bother and just do whatever you want.

No, that's not true at all. I believe in the motto that There Is No Such Thing As Notability — anything deserves its own page if one troper believes it needs one. I believed that Overwatch deserved its own page, so I made one. This is hardly limited to Overwatch — If Talon gets to a point like this, it should have its own page too in my opinion. I don't think arguing with you is "too tiresome". I just didn't think you would take issue. There was no issue when I made the organization and NPCs pages, so I didn't see the problem here.

I digress. I worked very hard writing all of these entries on the page and making everything look neat. I've seen character pages with separate pages for various things, I don't see the problem with Overwatch having one, but I'll be willing to take in your POV. It doesn't hurt anything in my point of view. And even if we go by "cutting things down to get the gist", I wouldn't get the gist of it by what was available. That was my first issue.

Also, I've been very concise with most of my entries lately, making sure to get the point across and keeping the words needed to a minimal and avoiding "flowery language".

There Is No Such Thing As Notability is one of the most misunderstood concepts on the wiki, for the exact argument you're making right now. It does not mean "all details are notable". It means that no WORKS are too obscure or non-academic to be unworthy of a trope page. It does not mean "every character, idea or concept deserves a page as long as we can fill it with details".

Subpages are made for utility purposes. It's for making content easier to find or to make room for content that already exists. What you did is the opposite of that. You made a SECOND page with information about characters who are listed elsewhere, basically DOUBLING the work necessary to trope said characters. You also made the page not because there's too many tropes right now, but to make room for more tropes which haven't happened yet. Again, the opposite of what we're supposed to do.

Thing is, I believe you when you say you're trying. If I didn't, I wouldn't be explaining this to you right now. I would have just summoned an admin and let them tell you in more stern and certain words. But as I've said, I don't think you're getting it. The source of the problem isn't your actions — your actions are a symptom of a much deeper misunderstanding of what we're supposed to use this wiki for and what its rules are. First and foremost, you have to understand that the site is supposed to be as objective as possible and get its points across in the quickest and fewest words possible. If that means "details" get lost, then so be it so long as it doesn't misrepresent an example.

No. It's way too early to even discuss this.

The new Overwatch barely has any information known about it, particularly since the game is non-canon. For example, we don't know if Winston actually IS the leader, since he and Soldier both have lines that suggest they might be. And there is NOTHING that states Tracer is the second in command.

If and when we get more tropes for the new Overwatch, it can be in its own separate folder. But right now, trying to force it will only fill the page with rushed information.

I said later, when lore is revealed. Might want to read the whole thing next time. I just wanted to ask in advanced, because the story evolves outside the game and Recall basically confirmed that Overwatch is coming back. Also, the list of members were predictions based on their likelihood of what they'd be if they were to form together.

Let's try this again: When we get concrete proof that Overwatch has returned beyond the ending of Recall, should the old Overwatch and the new Overwatch be made separate entities?

Let me repeat: it is too early to discuss that.

If and when it happens, we will add the folder like everything else. Right now, there is barely any information to add which isn't guessing.

I read what you said just fine, thank you very much. I STILL say you're jumping the gun.

I'm not jumping the gun. If I were, I'd have made the folder right now. But isn't it confirmed more-or-less that Overwatch is reforming in the story? As I read more and more of the lore, I'm waiting in anticipating for when we get to current events, presumably when Overwatch takes on Talon. I just wanted to make sure it was clear ahead of time.

But you said that there will be a new folder. Does that at least mean that you agree that Old Overwatch and New Overwatch should be separate entities when we get there?

Yes you are. Your first post in this thread presents a lot of speculation as fact. Yiu may not have made a folder yet, but yiu are already making a number of assumptions which really aren't helpful.

Your last question at the end there is a demonstration of what I'm talking about: IF and WHEN more information is revealed about the new Overwatch, including how similar or different it is from the old one, it MIGHT warrant a separate folder.

There's nothing "to get clear ahead of time" because a billion things could happen between now and then, including (as unlikely as it is) Rocks Fall Everybody Dies.

As I often say, if something looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, in FICTION, it could be an alien shapeshifter in the form of a duck.

But we all know Overwatch is coming back — isn't that the whole premise at this point? You think that Talon is just going to continue to reign terror while being completely unopposed? That would be pretty lame if you ask me. True, Overwatch activity is illegal due to the PETRAS Act. However, as universal of a rule as it is... you know what they say, some rules were just meant to be broken.

I just wanted to be clear ahead of time that we should make the new Overwatch a separate entity because I feel like we're nearing it. I'll make it clear to you: I will not add a folder regarding the new Overwatch until it's made clear that Overwatch is officially back in business. I promise.

Also, I'm not treating speculation as absolute fact. I'm just making predictions on the future of where it might go. The ones I listed are who I see as the most likely to join, due to being unaffiliated young members who would serve Overwatch well with their abilities. They need to be a part of the core story somehow, and a new generation of Overwatch agents makes perfect sense.

I really don't want to argue back and forth, so I'll let someone else weigh in.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with making speculation... but this isn't really the place for it. That should go on in the Forums.

There's really nothing to be done here one way or the other.

This isn't speculation, this is preparation. Anyone could tell that Overwatch is coming back, that's what everything is leading up to at this point.

I'll show you what it will look like to have two Overwatch folders. I'll use this when the time is right and everything is concrete. But for now, this will just give you an idea of what it might look like. I'm also making this to save us the time for later, when Overwatch is back in town.

Sorry, I can't seem to get the little stats to work here. But do you think this could work? I repeat, I will not add this to the actual page until we know for absolute certain that Overwatch is back.

[-Type: International task force Standing: Disbanded Headquarters: Overwatch Headquarters, Switzerland Known Members: Jack Morrison, Gabriel Reyes, Ana Amari (MIA), Torbjörn Lindholm, Reinhardt Willhelm, Angela "Mercy" Ziegler, Jesse McCree, Winston, Lena "Tracer" Oxton, Genji Shimada, Mei-Ling Zhou (MIA), Gerard Lacroix (KIA), Bayless (KIA), Al-Farouk (KIA), Fusionator, Liao, Kimiko, Mirembe, Singh -]

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Imagine The Avengers as a UN taskforce - with all the superscience, genius, mutations, and tech that implies - and you're probably pretty close to Overwatch at its prime. Founded to deal with the Omnic Crisis, Overwatch was an organization dedicated to global peacekeeping, employing a wide array of "Soldiers, scientists, adventurers, [and] oddities" with advanced technology to this end.

In practice, it didn't quite work out. Overwatch crumbled into disrepair with the actions of Gabriel Reyes, who resented not being made commander of Overwatch. Rumors of black ops agencies involved with kidnapping and murder circulated. There were stories of assassination, coercion, kidnapping, torture, and worse. Governments called on the UN to shut down the "aggressive and repeated violations of many countries' sovereignty." Finally, after a catastrophic battle between Gabriel Reyes and Commander Jack Morrison, the organization was disbanded, public opinion having rendered it beyond saving in the eyes of many.

While its agents are still active in some form - as wandering peacekeepers, adventurers, or mercenaries - the organization still shapes the Overwatch world to this day.

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• Blue Is Heroic: The standard uniform for Overwatch was primarily made up of blue and white, as demonstrated by Jack, Ana, and Reyes.
• Breaking the Fellowship: Once a small, tight-knit legendary strike team, it grew into a global organization that slowly grew unsteady with internal corruption. The fallout between Jack Morrison and Gabriel Reyes, caused by years of Gabriel letting his own feelings and resentment fester, was the final act of this trope. Before that, Ana faked her death and went into seclusion/retirement, while Reinhardt was forced to retire.
• Broken Pedestal: Once globally hailed as a symbol of peace and hope. Just the mere sight of an Overwatch agent on the battle field boosted morale significantly. But after rumors of its darker deeds came out and threats kept popping out despite its efforts, its reputation sunk to an all-time low. Its destruction during the fight between Jack Morrison and Gabriel Reyes sealed the deal. It is now reviled as a group of criminals and villains.
  • It seems to be a Subverted Trope for some however. The cinematic trailer has a museum with a large exhibit on Overwatch that speaks kindly of them, and Chris (the little kid who could not have been around in Overwatch's heyday) not only knows some of Overwatch's agents by name but regards them as superheroes. In universe newspaper clippings about Overwatch's possible return seem to be cautiously optimistic.
• Dirty Business: Some of Overwatch's prominent agents like Ana came to regret their more sinister actions, and the Martial Pacifist Mercy hated the origination's militaristic tendencies.
• Fatal Flaw:
  • If Junkrat is to be believed, Overwatch's idealism caused its agents to ignore problems outside of the wars it was designed to stop and ultimately caused its downfall into disgrace. While it's easy to write off Junkrat's perspective because he's not the sanest person, this is eerily perceptive, as it's all but stated that's exactly what happened with Jack Morrison/Soldier 76.
  • Alternatively, if Mercy is to be believed, the fall of Overwatch was inevitable due to its militaristic nature. Overwatch was founded primarily to fight threats, not to heal the conflict and the destruction it causes, and while it achieved many advancements in science and discovery, at its core, Overwatch (and in particular Blackwatch) still tried to impose Might Makes Right, using assassination, coercion and torture to get the job done.
• Fallen Hero: The organization itself - once hailed as heroes and defenders of freedom, liberty, and justice - as a whole. While they were well-intentioned, the darker things they did behind the scenes turned public opinion against them almost irrevocably.
• Five-Man Band: Before it grew into an international peacekeeping organization, Overwatch started as a five-person strike team:
  • Jack Morrison is The Leader, acting as the "face" while leading and coordinating missions, and also stepping into the fray when necessary.
  • Gabriel Reyes is The Lancer, Morrison's best friend who is exceptionally ruthless and not known for his good personality. He is however very skilled and acted as the Strike Commander while on operations, as well as being the one who'd do the Dirty Business for the team.
    • When the first Omnic Crisis started out, the position was reversed: Reyes was The Leader, while Morrison was The Lancer. However, Morrison's charisma and idealism caused him to be designated as the leader with Reyes as his Number Two. Resentment at this eventually caused Reyes to betray the team.
  • Reinhardt Wilhelm is both The Big Guy and The Heart, the hulking knight who soaks up damage for his friends as well as the one who kept the moral fiber of Overwatch. His retirement marks the start of where Overwatch would fall apart due to inner quarrel.
  • Torbjörn Lindholm is The Smart Guy, with a brilliant mind for mechanical devices including his famous turrets. His history of working with Omnics helped the team know the best ways to combat them.
  • Ana Amari is The Chick, not only because she's the sole female but also because of her conflicted emotions whenever she has to take a life. She prefers keeping her distance in combat as a sniper.
• For Science!: The "scientists/oddities" part mentioned above wasn't just for show. Overwatch dabbled in cutting-edge technology in at least physics (the Slipstream incident and Winston's chronal accelerator), robotics (Torbjörn's specialty) and biology (Mercy's work). However, Mercy does question Overwatch's ethics; she was just overruled on almost every occasion.
• For Want Of A Nail: There are two things that lead to Overwatch's downfall — the kidnapping and brainwashing of Amélie Lacroix and the leaking of Blackwatch's files to the public by Gabriel Reyes. These resulted in a chain of events led to the elimination of key member Gerard Lacroix, as well as Ana Amari and Reinhardt as active members, and turned the United Nations against Overwatch. From that point forward, terrorist organization Talon was able to reign unopposed due to the fact that Gerard, their biggest opposition, was handily eliminated by his wife Amélie. As stated by Mercy, from that point onward, the downfall of Overwatch was inevitable.
• Heroes "R" Us: An entire worldwide organization dedicated to providing special heroes in need of saving.
• Meaningful Name: Overwatch was built for the purpose of "watching over" the people it protected.
• Multinational Team: Overwatch recruits talented individuals from all over the world and were even willing to open their ranks to Omnics and sapient non-humans. Its founding members included two Americans, a German, a Swede and an Egyptian. It eventually grew to include a Swiss doctor, an American gunslinger, a gorilla scientist from the moon, an English pilot, a Japanese cyborg, and a Chinese climatologist. That's not counting the non-playable characters, who represent even more nationalities.
• Recruiting the Criminal: They weren't above recruiting captured criminals to serve them. McCree (formerly of the Deadlock Gang) and Genji (formerly of the Shimada Clan) are two known examples of Overwatch agents recruited this way.
• Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism: As a general rule, by the time Overwatch was shut down, only the younger members (Winston, Tracer, Mei) still believe whole-heartedly in its idealism and optimism. Of the founding members, only Reinhardt remained idealistic, due to his quixotic worldview. McCree became more idealistic during his time in Overwatch, but is a Knight in Sour Armor, while Mercy became disillusioned with Overwatch's militaristic policies, and Jack... completely lost it and became a complete cynic.
• True Companions: The original Overwatch Strike Team, as well as the later members, are shown to have had this relationship at one point. You really got to wonder, where did everything go wrong?

It's speculation because we do not trope the future.

There is nothing to be prepared for. What we think will obviously happen is not something we can trope. We only trope things AFTER they happen in story.

True, you are not asking to actually edit the pages now, but you're asking us about what we WILL trope after a future event has passed, which is the same thing. No matter how "obvious" it is, we don't trope the future because a story isn't out until it's out.

But my suggestion looks pretty good right?

I think it works well that way to have them separate, because even based on what little we know about the new Overwatch (which is almost nothing, other than that it consists of the seven members and it's illegal by the PETRAS Act), it's still very much a separate entity from the old Overwatch that ran proudly prior to disbandment.

You want to make a case that we don't trope something until it's out? Well, it is confirmed that Overwatch is back after the Recall short — that is undeniable, as it was the whole point of the short. So preparing for the future is perfectly justified here. As I said, I'll wait until more information is out and we can make a full folder entry out of it, but I'm just saying that I'm not drawing stuff out of thin air as you seem to think I am.

But I think I've made my point — through all the arguing, you agree that the old Overwatch and the new Overwatch would be good as separate folders. That's all I wanted to hear. I think we should end this, at least for now.

No, that's not confirmation. That's intention. Winston WANTS Overwatch to come back, but there is no story where it has actually happened yet.

And STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I said it MIGHT need to be in a separate folder depending on where the story goes. That's not a "yea" or "no". It's a "Maybe. We'll see."

A new voice line basically confirms the new Overwatch exists. It's between Winston and Soldier: 76. Are we ready to create the new folder yet, or should it wait a little longer? If nothing else, we're definitely closer and we should be considering it.

Winston: Someone is going to put a stop to your illegal activities.

Soldier: 76: You're one to talk. You and your friends are breaking the law. Same as me.

Again, the games are non-canon.

There's no rush. We don't have to jump at every sing thing.

Disregard this.

The new Overwatch is officially 100% confirmed to be real in the Reflections comic. Though the full membership isn't confirmed, Winston and Tracer are members of the newly-reinstated organization.

We should start considering it now.

Lazer, that still tells us no new information than we alredy knew. Overwatch being back was already known, and Tracer and Winston being its first two members was also known. We didn't need either of those facts confirmed. It still amounts to "Winston is reviving Overwatch and Tracer was the first to answer".

Feel free to trope^note Within reason what happened with Tracer and Winston in that chapter, but other than the two of them, there's no "New Overwatch" to speak of.

Seriously, just chill out. There isn't a race to trope stuff. We don't have to comb through every single scrap of information and trope it to death. I really hate being the "wet blanket" here, but I don't think you quite get why what you want to do is wrong.

Would anyone be willing to do this? I think it's a good compromise, because it's not troping the future or definitively stating that they're joining. It only notes the members who have been recalled in the present at the end of Recall. I think that's fair enough.