Rename Attempt #2:: The Mario

Again, let's look at the wicks. Anything like what happened with Umbridge shows misuse.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Mario's most recognizable trait as a character is that he jumps very high and that he fights by jumping on things. When I think Mario I think 'extraordinary jumping ability'. I vote for Jack of All Stats. I really think this one is surviving on Grandfather Clause and that it's time is up.

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Can we get a single prop BEFORE we get new names? Still waiting on those wicks.

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan

I haven't heard that this is being misused, not even in the way The Umbridge was.

While I do agree that when thinking of Mario balanced stats are nowhere near the first thing that comes to mind, I'd have to say that's not causal for a rename. In particular because once you've evaluated and troped the character up to a certain point, the stats will come up.

I mean, all those attributes that "so uniquely" idenitify Mario are already covered by tropes, so if you find those aren't The Mario, then The Mario bust relate to another attribute. Mario is well known for being a plumber... who doesn't actually do plumbing — well, we have a trope for that. Let's try known for being a good jumper — oh, that's already covered. Being a very famous and identifiable character — pretty much covered. What else is there? throwing fireballs: check, being a franchise's (and company's) mascot: check, having a nice moustache: check. Let's try being generic enough that when mapped to spinoffs and related games he is made well-rounded. Oh, we have it!

Not that it would be any good, because there are other concepts that I think would come first, but I don't think the trope needs rename on the basis of being what it is. If that made it misused, yeah, let's rename it. So waiting for the wicks.

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?

This trope is being used in ridiculously appropriate ways. Seriously, this may be one of the least-confused tropes on the wiki. I actually left off a bunch of appropriate uses, because this post is gigantic enough as it is.

This entire thread was clearly started by some random guessing/muckracking about a trope that someone didn't like the name of, without any real investigation into its use, as opposed to real concerns about misuse. Sorry if I come off as terse, but I just waded through the majority of the wicks, something that should have been done before suggesting a rename, by the rename's proponents.

edit: And, of course, my markup is a mess. sigh.

Appropriate:
A Commander Is You: extensive appropriate use of "Mario Faction," the balanced faction, with examples.
Attack! Attack! Attack!: Appropriately potholed with class that fits this trope.
Batman: Discussion of Bruce Wayne not being the best at any particular thing, but good at everything
Bubble Tanks: Used as rhetorical in-between of Fragile Speedster and Mighty Glacier, appropriately.
Choice of Two Weapons: Characters using light/medium armor and swords and bows with equal skills, potholed as "flexible souls," discussing balanced attack.
Critical Mass: "The "Heathen" and "Whirlwind" chains are both relatively balanced, but with different emphases."
Dos Gringos: "starts off by fantasizing about all the awesome things that the A-10 Thunderbolt II, F-15C Eagle, F-15E Strike Eagle, and F-18 Hornet have ... then boasts that the F-16 can do all their missions and do it better then them."
Dubloon: "Ricky, who has one attack for each element. And water."
Eternal Darkness: "Alex, Anthony, and Edwin Lindsey, although each is above average in one of their stats."
Five Races: Used to describe humans in fantastic settings.
Gaiking: "Gaiking and the Daiku Maryu, of the three sets of Combining Mecha, are considered the most balanced of the three."
Global Agenda: "Many consider Medics to be this, due to how well-rounded their arsenal of poisons and healing devices is and they don't really have to sacrifice their healing ability for offense."
Highly-Visible Ninja: Bang Shishigami is coorectly described as this and contrasted with archetypical ninja.
Jets N Guns: "The T Mi G-226 Koala Killer is this in the Gold Edition." Compared to other planes, such as a Mighty Glacier.
Jump Super Stars: Lists characters which fit this trope.
Lady of War: "In terms of physical capabilities, she's usually some form of the Fragile Speedster (or Glass Cannon, if a ranged fighter), but it's not unheard of for her to be a Mario or Mighty Glacier, especially if she wears armor."
Magic Knight: "Usually, the Magic Knight will specialize in a particular class of magic (attack or healing, for instance), effectively making him a hybrid of only two "classes", rather than being an out-and-out "Jack" of all trades. However, being a total Mario is also possible, depending on the game. " Given in 4-5 examples, all appropriate.
Mario and Luigi: Misuse actually corrected in natter, points out that in this game Mario is not The Mario.
Monday Night Combat: Description of balanced class.
Multiform Balance: Description of well-rounded base form of a mecha(?)
Multiple Demographic Appeal: Description of TF 2 Soldier class (its inclusion makes sense in context, amazingly).
Ninja Baseball Bat Man: "Captain Jose/Red."
Non-Elemental: "A Non Elemental spell, power or mon will be the elemental equivalent of The Mario: no weaknesses, but no noteworthy strength. Despite this "averageness", the Non Elemental's greatest strength is that he can bypass most elemental resistances and strengths, making him effective against elements or types that have no or rare weaknesses. That he's so well balanced means he can work in just about any situation on top of that, too."
Points of Light: Again, humans in fantastic settings.
Ring of Red: "Medium AFWs are able to fight well with their guns as well as mix it up in close combat (though not as well as Anti-AF Ws)."
RPG Parade: Use looks correct, not familiar with the series.
Schrödinger Fu: Weird use contrasted with Lightning Bruiser, but appropriate. (Cool trope, just discovered it now)
Squishy Wizard: Used to describe red mages in Final Fantasy XI
Starfox: Questionable use applied to Fox, Appropriate use applied to Wolf.
Super Mario Bros 2: Used as example of trait balancing, contrasting with other characters.
Super Mario Bros: Used as appropriate for certain series entries.
Tank Goodness: Applied to the M 1 A 1 Abrams from Battle Tanx.
The Everyman: "The videogame version of this is a Heroic Mime in terms of plot, The Mario in terms of ability, and AFGNCAAP when taken to its extreme."
The Seven Basic Plots: Used to describe effective but non-specialized character.
Waif-Fu: "A character dependent on Waif Fu is likely to be a Fragile Speedster, or possibly The Mario."
Wizard 101: "The balance school is stated to be this."
World's Strongest Man: Seems appropriate, used opposite Gentle Giant and Lightning Bruiser.
Zombie Driver: The taxi is "your starting car, with all-around performance."
Questionable:
Casanova: Not sure how good an example Fox McCloud is of this trope, but there's a real discussion there.
Husky Russkie: "Inverted in the Saturday Night Slam Masters games, where Russian Biff Slamkovich, a former sparring partner of Zangief's, is The Mario; the British-born Giant Titanic Tim stands over two feet taller than him." Don't know if it's being used as "short character" or if it actually fits, no knowledge of the series.
Necessary Drawback: "Characters built on this trope." Definitely not confusion, contrasted with Master of None, but arguably applicable.
Unpopular Popular Character: Used for character which is average (good), but also squeaky-clean (not so good) within pothole.
Misuse: FakeBalance: One of the examples uses this instead of the appropriate Master of None.
Shigeru Miyamoto: The confusion in question.

edited 26th Sep '10 7:35:31 PM by Fnor

"This entire thread was clearly started by some random guessing/muckracking about a trope that someone didn't like the name of, without any real investigation into its use, as opposed to real concerns about misuse. Sorry if I come off as terse, but I just waded through the majority of the wicks, something that should have been done before suggesting a rename, by the rename's proponents."

Did you even read the OP, or the threads before this? Just assuming someone did this for no reason is as little research as you are accusing the OP of.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

There is the point that this kind of research is supposed to be done beforehand, the OP even asked if there was any misuse going on, instead of having checked first herself.

OP started with discussion of prior failed rename attempt, suggested/speculated that The Umbridge-style confusion was present where cursory inspection would show it was not and started a feeding frenzy over renaming a healthy trope. I have no animosity toward Elle, but my comments are entirely appropriate.

The main priority for "this trope needs to be renamed is "it's broken." The best way to support an argument that "It's broken" is to produce evidence that it is being heavily misused. The only real way to do that is to do a wick check.

The first wick check, by Fnor in post #6 produced this result: "Out of about 80 or so articles I checked, I found two misuses. Not only is this trope popular, it's being used very well and without confusion."

The second cited wick check, by carla in pst #14 produceed this: "anyway, i checked around 20 works/tropes i'm familiar with. 4 of those had incorrect uses, mostly referencing "princess peach's boyfriend." and of course, many of the "good" examples were just the name of a certain character potholed to The Mario without much more of an explanation"

The third, detailed wick check is in post #31 and show 38 correct, 4 uncertain and 2 misused.

There's no evidence of heavy misuse.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

That's Lightning Bruiser.

edited 26th Sep '10 8:01:56 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.

Anyway, in the most recent annalysis, there were 44 wicks, 38 were definitely correct. If none of the questionables are correct, that would make 86% correct, 14% misuse.

edited 26th Sep '10 8:07:56 PM by Twilightdusk

I'm for Jack of All Stats. Other choices: Average Across The Board, Okay At Everything.

After view the available evidence I'm strongly for leaving alone. Circumstances the would have impelled a rename were hypothesized, examined and found false. Other than that, there's nothing here.

Character named tropes are often problematic. Please try to make certain that the problems that can come with them are the focus here, rather than a largely problem-free trope name that happens to be a character named trope.

...

I really hate that sentence, but I'm too tired now to work out what's wrong with it.

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a trope renamed just because it's name really was just that bad?

I'm not talking about the relative wicks where the trope is properly applied or the democratic process this site goes though, but just that someone realizes that there are better options that can and most certainly SHOULD apply to the name of the trope?

BTW, I like the democratic process used here. It's a refreshing change of decision making than what I normally experience with the rest of the internet. :)

Mo Cap Mecha was, but it had a lot of bad usage. A bad name will result most commonly in misuse or no use, the more common reason for having neither with a bad name, is being extremely new and right out of YKTTW.

Fight smart, not fair.

^^ Yes. Several. But in those cases the name was bad enough that there was absolutely no defense offered for it — not even "but I think it's funny." Změlík  ^*

was one; Crummies  ^*

^{Go Look At The Distraction}

was another, and I'm pretty sure I Am Kirok  ^*

^{Forgot the Call}

was a third.

edited 26th Sep '10 11:01:04 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Isn't being a character-named trope where the character isn't even remotely known for the aspect the trope describes cause enough for rename? It may not be causing misuse, but it's unintuitive for our readers.

Edit: I'm for Jack of All Stats, by the way.

edited 27th Sep '10 12:17:29 AM by macroscopic

Support stupid freshness, yo.

I think we need to have tougher guidelines on trope names getting launched out of YKTTW, since a just plain bad name without misuse rapidly gains enough inertia to avoid being renamed once launched.

BTW, I'm a chick.

The Mario has been around for a long ass time, it's not new. It's just one of those tropes that's sufficiently entrenched that it's not worth renaming.

Remember, the objective of the name is to create a handle for the pattern. If the handle has caught on, there's no sense in breaking it off to weld a new one on. The objective of establishing "clear, concise, witty, in that order" is to keep from getting it confused for different tropes, being a hard to find trope, or confusing it for a work.

Fight smart, not fair.

It's entrenched in the culture of those who are already here; the title is still useless to people who aren't already familiar with it. Even if it isn't causing internal problems, what is the point of a title that doesn't describe the article in any helpful way?

It could be argued that "The Mario" isn't even a title proper, but an example via synecdoche, and not a particularly evocative one.

Support stupid freshness, yo.

"The Mario" is far from the only trope with this issue.

BTW, I'm a chick.

As far as I'm concerned that's a total non-issue. If a trope is

• Being used
• Being used correctly
• Being used by more than the editors(baring indices)

then that is a trope with no problems. Outside of ad generation or possible legal issues, after those 3 things, it doesn't matter what the name of a trope is.

Changing names willy-nilly kills the stability of the wiki and lowers it's credibility as a resource far more than all the Jonas Quinn names in the world could.

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.

Maybe all tropes named after characters should require that the trope namer also be the Most Triumphant Example as well.. Not just one example, as Mario happens to be from Super Mario Kart DS, but as how Mario should be in every game he's ever appeared in, including the referee from Punch Out.

Mario Kart DS? I seem to recall Mario being an average driver in the SNES original. As well as SMB 2. Heck, in just about any Mario game featuring a case of selectable characters (mostly the spinoffs, admittedly), Mario is... well, The Mario of the roster.

edited 27th Sep '10 10:12:38 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.