Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I think that you guys have done a great job of cleaning up the Music section of this trope's page, but there are still a couple entries that I'm not sure about:

The Torture Never Stops:

"Frank Zappa's "The Torture Never Stops" is basically an excuse for an extended guitar solo mixed with sounds of a woman gasping and moaning and crying out; a shout-out to Frank's teenaged years, when he actually got arrested for using similar sounds in a more erotic context. The lyrics, however, concern the Evil Prince and his stinking, fly-covered Dungeon of Despair, full of nameless prisoners whose crimes, if any, are unknown. As the Prince eats "a steaming pig", his "carving style is well-rehearsed". His only line is, "all men be cursed!" His servants are terrified: "Disagree? No one durst!" And even as he eats, the torture never stops. ("The Torture! The Torture!") Probably best not to ask about the "iron sausage"."

I feel like this one's a little vague, and the song's lyrics are mainly about how disgusting and horrible the torture chambers/dungeons in some castle are, and barely mention the "Evil Prince" who supposedly qualifies as a CM. The rest of the songs mentioned clearly describe a psychopath who commits horrible crimes and doesn't feel any remorse for them ("The Rake's Song" and "The Curse of Milhaven" are particularly strong examples in that regard). Maybe this "Evil Prince" feels no remorse, or maybe he does. Unlike Lottie or the Rake, I don't know enough about him to pin him as a Complete Monster after listening to the song. I think it should be cut.

The only other song that I'm not convinced should be on the page is Creature Feature's "Such Horrible Things". There's no doubt that this guy's a psychotic Enfante Terrible, but if you pay attention to the lyrics, it's not even clear if he actually kills anyone or not. He pushed his sister down a well, sure, but he never says that she died, and when he burned his house down and buried his brother, he clearly states that nobody died. This example I could take or leave, but I'm not sure if it qualifies.

edited 3rd Oct '12 7:47:57 PM by Camberf

Cut Zalachenko, Bjurman, Wendy, Constantius, and Cathy.

Anyone familiar with this example?

• The Diamond Duchess and her Chief Ranger in Margery Sharp's Miss Bianca. She is a child enslaver and abuser and pursues her escaped victim.

Ivan Drago: Cut him, not enough heinous actions, and his murder was unintentional.

Also, here's a music example I've found on the Within Temptation YMMV

The Priest from Angels.

Summary:

The priest is in the music video in the link. His crimes include: Luring the main character, into his house after she is seemingly abandoned on the side of the road by her companion. Bait the Dog ensues, where he is established as a nice guy, kinda. Meanwhile she goes to his back room she finds numerous articles of women captured/killed, and then the video flashes back to all the women he lured in (from a first person point of view). He was dressed as trustworthy people; a doctor, a clown, (and others) and finally a priest. He then chloroforms her and takes her out to the desert to bury her alive, with at least sixteen other graves shown (the aforementioned first person POV's). Finally, the Main character, her companion, and several other band members reveal themselves as angels or something, and the souls of the dead women kill him. The video displays his eyes as looking red and unnatural to when he displays menace.

edited 3rd Oct '12 11:00:37 PM by DrPsyche

Don't forget Clubber Lang.

Don't know Lang's movie as well as Drago's, but the description does not make him qualify. As you said, it's a Hero Killer not a CM.

So someone added a supposedly in-universe example to Tales of Symphonia's character sheet. I believe that its the same troper who previously added the "in-universe" examples that were removed for misuse. The example doesn't really fit anyway: Kvar probably does qualify as a Complete Monster (and he is on the CM Tales Series subpage), but the only reasons given for his entry are that his minions are unnerved by him.

Update: I removed the non-example from the character sheet and edited the entries on the YMMV page to be more consistent with the ones on the CM page

edited 4th Oct '12 6:25:16 AM by lrrose

@Dr Psyche

I was the one who proposed this image with Frollo when we discussed it. But, I don't think we should care for that for now; the most important thing is to get rid of the bad examples. We will be thinking about new images later.

I would also cut those guys from Rocky by the way.

So, does anybody object to me cutting The Mad Doctor?

edited 4th Oct '12 6:57:44 AM by Krystoff

@Irrose: I am sure you know this, but as a reminder, In-Universe applies to Show Within a Show: that is, if the characters in a work are themselves watching or participating in a work, and they believe a character in that work to be a Complete Monster, then and only then do we apply the In-Universe tag. It also is no longer subjective and goes in the main article.

However, the same standards need to apply. That's why we draw a distinction between You Monster! and Complete Monster to begin with.

edited 4th Oct '12 7:12:45 AM by Fighteer

The character in question does not exist in a Show Within a Show context. For the record, here's what I removed:

• Complete Monster: [Kvar] is regarded as an in-universe one by the Desians. Specially, his own Mooks of all people hate and fear him. We remind you that said mooks are the sort of people who enjoy murder and torture. He is also the only villain in the game that the whole party regards as irredeemable, to the point that everybody wants the opportunity to fight him.

edited 4th Oct '12 7:15:41 AM by lrrose

Yep, that's You Monster!.

Since you are here already Fighteer, do you have an opinion on The Mad Doctor?

He strikes me as more of a parody than the real thing. But Disney is well known for having some surprisingly dark villains for what is notionally kids' fare.

edited 4th Oct '12 8:10:01 AM by Fighteer

I deleted Clay, Bloberta, Miss Censordoll, Clubber Lang, and Ivan Drago. I also edited the Rocky character page to get the point across that Drago's a heel, but he's not evil, such as showing honor in the end and the fact that he's married to Ludmilla Drago.

I also deleted the In-Universe entries from Manga.Monster, Characters.Monster, and LetsPlay.Marik Plays Bloodlines

edited 4th Oct '12 8:12:59 AM by ChaoticQueen

So, are you okay with me requesting to cut him? He is scary, but all he did is simply try to kill Mickey. That's it.

Yeah, I don't see the point in keeping him.

I was about to pop in to confirm that Irrose removed an example that was properly You Monster! instead. I also thought that something sounded fishy and familiar about the edit Irrose removed, and found that it's the same guy who made the questionable edit before that I removed from Tales Of Vesperia. I think I have to report him to Ask The Tropers; he's done quite a few other questionable edits involving this and other YMMV tropes.

@3597 That's a bit rambling and incoherent. But at least I can tell what character you mean and from where. That said, you don't really say why they would belong.

@3598 Okay, then it seems the two Vagners qualify. Upon research, it appears that most of Telebornian's crimes are offscreen, so he should be cut.

@3600 I would cut anyone from Rocky and its sequels. The deaths were all accidental, unless you want to make commentary on the barbarism of boxing (and I personally would rather not).

@3601 Hmm... The song "The Torture Never Stops" is much mroe vague than I remember. The evil prince involved, the only thing he does is... carve up a pig to eat (and then eat the feet and snout). Yeah, I think we can cut that. "Such Horrible Things" does deserve to stay, though - it's not about success, it's about the attempt. It's clear that he tries to kill both siblings (he clearly failed with the brother, the sister's fate is unclear), plus it sounds like he at least attempted to mutilate the mailman. Also, it's unclear if the arson attempt was when nobody was around or when there were no potential witnesses who'd survive. I'm inclined to keep.

@3602 No; the Internet tells me that it's the book series that The Rescuers was based upon (specifically, the second of nine in the series). For all that it matters, info I've found suggests that Madame Medusa from The Rescuers was based on the Diamond Duchess of Miss Bianca. Between how little is described and the fact that I said the Disney version didn't count in @1556, I say cut unless someone can offer a good reason to keep.

@3603 Hmm... I believe we could include the example. Any appropriate lyrics to include as well?

@3613: Excellent.

@3616: Lyrics don't really get across how evil he is like the visuals do. In fact, I could probably place the lyrics into a song about an abusive boyfriend or All Girls Want Bad Boys (the video is neither a case of either of these.

''Fallen angel Tell me why? What is the reason? The thorn in your eye''

That's the lyrics when the guy is revealed. Again, The visuals sell me on him being a CM, not the lyrics.

@3607: Yeah, I suppose we need to prioritize (honestly, with his sparkling cartoon eyes, I didn't really get the "scary" part, but all he does is kidnap Pluto and try to kill him and mickey) If you cut him, I won't be complaining.

I have deleted Kryb.

edited 4th Oct '12 9:35:05 AM by DrPsyche

Now also looking at the Myst subpage:

• Archenar shouldn't be mentioned given his remorse for his killings. Besides, the whole damn paragraph, with the remorseless killer as the subject, is spoilered. Not good!
• Gehn needs more clarity I think if it's worth keeping after all
• Esher's entry is very short. Needs more clarity if worth keeping.
• The P'aarli and the Terahnee are both groups and should be cut.
• A'Gaeris comes across as a Manipulative Bastard who strives to destroy a city as a means of revenge of his expulsion (from what I gather in the wiki). The entry didn't state the motives, so I'm not even sure if this is a keeper.

EDIT: Also hoping to see further thoughts on the Jak and Daxter subpage

edited 4th Oct '12 11:10:49 AM by EarlOfSandvich

Found a few more bad literature examples. Seriously, this page is filled with one line examples, and badly written ones.

• Vlad Tepes of Count and Countess definitely doesn't start off as one, which makes his eventual change into a monstrous person bone-chilling. At one point, he's trying to lower the drafting age for young boys in his army - when the drafting age is already twelve.

• The Archimandrite Luseferous from Iain M. Banks' novel The Algebraist. "[T]hat most deplorable of beings, a psychopathic sadist with a fertile imagination."

I don't know if this example counts or not, but it certainly needs a rewrite:

• Virtually every villain in books by the late Richard Laymon, who specialized in creating some of the most vile characters imaginable to torment his leads. But special mention should go to Roy from "The Cellar", a serial pedophile who raped his own daughter, tortured his wife, and, upon his release from prison, killed a couple and kidnapped their daughter while chasing down his own ex and daughter. From the same book, Beast House matriarch Maggie Kutch gleefully presides over a horrific legacy of torture, rape, and murder, unleashing the Beasts on innocents regularly. Although she does have a Freudian Excuse (her husband and children were murdered by the Beast), it's insufficient to excuse the decades of murders and kidnappings.
  • From the same The Beast House series, horror novelist Gorman Hardy qualifies. He's a rare Laymon villain in that he's motivated by greed as opposed to sexual perversion, but his actions (luring a teenage girl into the Beast House, leaving her at the beast's mercy, and finally attempting to murder her in cold blood, all to further his twisted plans to make money off the house's legend) make him one of Laymon's most despicable characters.
  • Wesley and Thelma from Island murdered the parents of two teenage girls who are living on the eponymous island, and kept those girls as sex slaves.

I get very tired of this, "I won't list the things they do because it would fill the page" crap. If you don't want to make the effort, don't make the entry.

• In The 120 Days of Sodom, the Four libertines (Duc de Blangis, The Bishop, The President de Curval, and Durcet) are easily the poster children for this trope. They have no good bone in their bodies, find virtue disgusting and commit so many acts of evil that if you were to make a drinking game out of how many they do, the damage to your liver would be irreparable. The sheer volume would take up the page. Their 8 female accomplices also qualify.

Then there's this stupidity:

• Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time:
  • While not be portrayed as an actual character (except those all-caps bits in the Pit of Doom), the Dark One himself is essentially responsible for all evil in the world, excepting only instances like Shadar Logoth.
  • The Forsaken:
    • Ishamael/ Moridin is thoroughly nihilistic ( the reason why the Dark One makes him Nae'blis) and works for the Dark One, because he knows one evil victory ends the world (the rest just think they'll get immortality).
    • Aginor created Trollocs and the Blight.
    • Graendal is a massive perv in the worst kind of way.
    • Lanfear is an example of how Love Makes You Evil.
    • Mesaana nearly pulls a Mind Rape on Egwene (only to suffer the same fate) and is the cause of the split in the White Tower.
    • Perhaps the worst (Ishy notwithstanding) is Semirhage, who invented a weave to swap one's blood with another substance instantly. Normally, the shock is an instant kill, but if you use a substance that mimics blood well enough, the torture recipient lives in indescribable agony for as much as a full hour. She describes it as her greatest triumph.
    • All of them are said to have committed more massive atrocities offscreen, during the Age of Legends. That's without yet getting into, say, Padan Fain, who absorbed the manifestation of the biggest non-Dark-One-related evil and Slayer, who kills wolves. Mazrim Taim is shaping up to be a bastard as well.
  • Some of the bad guys, however, are characterized as essentially being selfish brats given a lot of power (even said straight out by some of the other characters), also evil, but not to horrifically monstrous heights. Asmodean, while initially a servant of the Dark One in order to be the best musician ever(which doesn't really make any sense), does help The Chosen One against the Dark One, even if for selfish reasons. Damodred and Sammael apparently just really, REALLY hate The Chosen One. Sammael, in fact, would likely never have even joined the Shadow if not for Lews Therin.

Anyone who's actually read that series—who counts and who is just full of it?

edited 4th Oct '12 12:01:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I always wanted to ask this question; is it possible for a Love Makes You Evil example cross the line and become a CM? Or is it still a redeeming quality?

The Four libertines not only is a Zero Context Example but also violates "no group" rule. Easy cut.

edited 4th Oct '12 12:43:52 PM by Krystoff

Love is inherently a redeeming quality. Note that this is different from Stalker with a Crush. In the latter, the person may think they love the target but it's quite possibly something else. The two may coincide but don't have to.

So can a Stalker with a Crush be a CM?

I suppose it's at least possible for a CM to act like a stalker to someone they fixate on. This would probably pertain more to the sociopathic types than to others. A villain can also become obsessed with a character, sociopath or no, and seek to take them for their own in an I Have You Now, My Pretty fashion.

As with everything else, it depends on motives and how heinous their actions are. The point isn't that a Stalker with a Crush can't be a CM, but that love disqualifies a CM.

To be clear, Love Makes You Evil can involve Stalker with a Crush, and in that situation the character in question could not be a Complete Monster. A Stalker with a Crush that does not do it for love (or the illusion of love), could conceivably be a CM if they meet the necessary criteria.

edited 4th Oct '12 1:08:12 PM by Fighteer

Fighteer, I came here after removing a few more wicks when I heard something about Complete Monster being more about how the audience reacts. Your edit regarding the difference between this and You Monster! seems to hint at it. Does this mean that it's actually an Audience Reaction? If so, then I'll put it on that index pronto. This might convince Tropers to not be so reliant on what the author says as opposed to what we actually see.

Complete Monster is one of those odd tropes that could be objective if only people would agree on what it means. That's why it goes in the YMMV index. Audience Reactions aren't just things that fans argue over, it's things that only exist in the minds of fans. Hatedom, for example, is about how the fans react to a work. There isn't a hatedom in the work.