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I think that you guys have done a great job of cleaning up the Music section of this trope's page, but there are still a couple entries that I'm not sure about: The Torture Never Stops: "Frank Zappa's "The Torture Never Stops" is basically an excuse for an extended guitar solo mixed with sounds of a woman gasping and moaning and crying out; a shout-out to Frank's teenaged years, when he actually got arrested for using similar sounds in a more erotic context. The lyrics, however, concern the Evil Prince and his stinking, fly-covered Dungeon of Despair, full of nameless prisoners whose crimes, if any, are unknown. As the Prince eats "a steaming pig", his "carving style is well-rehearsed". His only line is, "all men be cursed!" His servants are terrified: "Disagree? No one durst!" And even as he eats, the torture never stops. ("The Torture! The Torture!") Probably best not to ask about the "iron sausage"." I feel like this one's a little vague, and the song's lyrics are mainly about how disgusting and horrible the torture chambers/dungeons in some castle are, and barely mention the "Evil Prince" who supposedly qualifies as a CM. The rest of the songs mentioned clearly describe a psychopath who commits horrible crimes and doesn't feel any remorse for them ("The Rake's Song" and "The Curse of Milhaven" are particularly strong examples in that regard). Maybe this "Evil Prince" feels no remorse, or maybe he does. Unlike Lottie or the Rake, I don't know enough about him to pin him as a Complete Monster after listening to the song. I think it should be cut. The only other song that I'm not convinced should be on the page is Creature Feature's "Such Horrible Things". There's no doubt that this guy's a psychotic Enfante Terrible, but if you pay attention to the lyrics, it's not even clear if he actually kills anyone or not. He pushed his sister down a well, sure, but he never says that she died, and when he burned his house down and buried his brother, he clearly states that nobody died. This example I could take or leave, but I'm not sure if it qualifies.
edited 3rd Oct '12 7:47:57 PM by Camberf
Cut Zalachenko, Bjurman, Wendy, Constantius, and Cathy. Anyone familiar with this example?
Ivan Drago: Cut him, not enough heinous actions, and his murder was unintentional. Also, here's a music example I've found on the Within Temptation YMMV The Priest from Angels. Summary: The priest is in the music video in the link. His crimes include: Luring the main character, into his house after she is seemingly abandoned on the side of the road by her companion. Bait the Dog ensues, where he is established as a nice guy, kinda. Meanwhile she goes to his back room she finds numerous articles of women captured/killed, and then the video flashes back to all the women he lured in (from a first person point of view). He was dressed as trustworthy people; a doctor, a clown, (and others) and finally a priest. He then chloroforms her and takes her out to the desert to bury her alive, with at least sixteen other graves shown (the aforementioned first person POV's). Finally, the Main character, her companion, and several other band members reveal themselves as angels or something, and the souls of the dead women kill him. The video displays his eyes as looking red and unnatural to when he displays menace.
edited 3rd Oct '12 11:00:37 PM by DrPsyche
The Chaotic QueenDon't forget Clubber Lang.
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
Don't know Lang's movie as well as Drago's, but the description does not make him qualify. As you said, it's a Hero Killer not a CM.
So someone added a supposedly in-universe example to Tales of Symphonia's character sheet. I believe that its the same troper who previously added the "in-universe" examples that were removed for misuse. The example doesn't really fit anyway: Kvar probably does qualify as a Complete Monster (and he is on the CM Tales Series subpage), but the only reasons given for his entry are that his minions are unnerved by him. Update: I removed the non-example from the character sheet and edited the entries on the YMMV page to be more consistent with the ones on the CM page
edited 4th Oct '12 6:25:16 AM by lrrose
@Dr Psyche I was the one who proposed this image with Frollo when we discussed it. But, I don't think we should care for that for now; the most important thing is to get rid of the bad examples. We will be thinking about new images later. I would also cut those guys from Rocky by the way. So, does anybody object to me cutting The Mad Doctor?
edited 4th Oct '12 6:57:44 AM by Krystoff
Geronimo!@Irrose: I am sure you know this, but as a reminder, In-Universe applies to Show Within a Show: that is, if the characters in a work are themselves watching or participating in a work, and they believe a character in that work to be a Complete Monster, then and only then do we apply the In-Universe tag. It also is no longer subjective and goes in the main article. However, the same standards need to apply. That's why we draw a distinction between You Monster! and Complete Monster to begin with.
edited 4th Oct '12 7:12:45 AM by Fighteer
The character in question does not exist in a Show Within a Show context. For the record, here's what I removed:
edited 4th Oct '12 7:15:41 AM by lrrose
Geronimo!Yep, that's You Monster!.
Since you are here already Fighteer, do you have an opinion on The Mad Doctor?
Geronimo!He strikes me as more of a parody than the real thing. But Disney is well known for having some surprisingly dark villains for what is notionally kids' fare.
edited 4th Oct '12 8:10:01 AM by Fighteer
The Chaotic QueenI deleted Clay, Bloberta, Miss Censordoll, Clubber Lang, and Ivan Drago. I also edited the Rocky character page to get the point across that Drago's a heel, but he's not evil, such as showing honor in the end and the fact that he's married to Ludmilla Drago. I also deleted the In-Universe entries from Manga.Monster, Characters.Monster, and LetsPlay.Marik Plays Bloodlines
edited 4th Oct '12 8:12:59 AM by ChaoticQueen
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
So, are you okay with me requesting to cut him? He is scary, but all he did is simply try to kill Mickey. That's it.
Geronimo!Yeah, I don't see the point in keeping him.
Think of the mooks!I was about to pop in to confirm that Irrose removed an example that was properly You Monster! instead. I also thought that something sounded fishy and familiar about the edit Irrose removed, and found that it's the same guy who made the questionable edit before that I removed from Tales of Vesperia. I think I have to report him to Ask The Tropers; he's done quite a few other questionable edits involving this and other YMMV tropes. @3597 That's a bit rambling and incoherent. But at least I can tell what character you mean and from where. That said, you don't really say why they would belong. @3598 Okay, then it seems the two Vagners qualify. Upon research, it appears that most of Telebornian's crimes are offscreen, so he should be cut. @3600 I would cut anyone from Rocky and its sequels. The deaths were all accidental, unless you want to make commentary on the barbarism of boxing (and I personally would rather not). @3601 Hmm... The song "The Torture Never Stops" is much mroe vague than I remember. The evil prince involved, the only thing he does is... carve up a pig to eat (and then eat the feet and snout). Yeah, I think we can cut that. "Such Horrible Things" does deserve to stay, though - it's not about success, it's about the attempt. It's clear that he tries to kill both siblings (he clearly failed with the brother, the sister's fate is unclear), plus it sounds like he at least attempted to mutilate the mailman. Also, it's unclear if the arson attempt was when nobody was around or when there were no potential witnesses who'd survive. I'm inclined to keep. @3602 No; the Internet tells me that it's the book series that The Rescuers was based upon (specifically, the second of nine in the series). For all that it matters, info I've found suggests that Madame Medusa from The Rescuers was based on the Diamond Duchess of Miss Bianca. Between how little is described and the fact that I said the Disney version didn't count in @1556, I say cut unless someone can offer a good reason to keep. @3603 Hmm... I believe we could include the example. Any appropriate lyrics to include as well?
@3613: Excellent. @3616: Lyrics don't really get across how evil he is like the visuals do. In fact, I could probably place the lyrics into a song about an abusive boyfriend or All Girls Want Bad Boys (the video is neither a case of either of these. ''Fallen angel Tell me why? What is the reason? The thorn in your eye'' That's the lyrics when the guy is revealed. Again, The visuals sell me on him being a CM, not the lyrics. @3607: Yeah, I suppose we need to prioritize (honestly, with his sparkling cartoon eyes, I didn't really get the "scary" part, but all he does is kidnap Pluto and try to kill him and mickey) If you cut him, I won't be complaining. I have deleted Kryb.
edited 4th Oct '12 9:35:05 AM by DrPsyche
grr argNow also looking at the Myst subpage:
edited 4th Oct '12 11:10:49 AM by EarlOfSandvich
Status of possible Fallout RP idea: Thinking of and open to new ideas. Just feelin' like a casual chat? My PM box is ALWAYS open!
Found a few more bad literature examples. Seriously, this page is filled with one line examples, and badly written ones.
edited 4th Oct '12 12:01:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I always wanted to ask this question; is it possible for a Love Makes You Evil example cross the line and become a CM? Or is it still a redeeming quality? The Four libertines not only is a Zero-Context Example but also violates "no group" rule. Easy cut.
edited 4th Oct '12 12:43:52 PM by Krystoff
Geronimo!Love is inherently a redeeming quality. Note that this is different from Stalker with a Crush. In the latter, the person may think they love the target but it's quite possibly something else. The two may coincide but don't have to.
So can a Stalker with a Crush be a CM?
Geronimo!I suppose it's at least possible for a CM to act like a stalker to someone they fixate on. This would probably pertain more to the sociopathic types than to others. A villain can also become obsessed with a character, sociopath or no, and seek to take them for their own in an I Have You Now, My Pretty fashion. As with everything else, it depends on motives and how heinous their actions are. The point isn't that a Stalker with a Crush can't be a CM, but that love disqualifies a CM. To be clear, Love Makes You Evil can involve Stalker with a Crush, and in that situation the character in question could not be a Complete Monster. A Stalker with a Crush that does not do it for love (or the illusion of love), could conceivably be a CM if they meet the necessary criteria.
edited 4th Oct '12 1:08:12 PM by Fighteer
Musically inclinedFighteer, I came here after removing a few more wicks when I heard something about Complete Monster being more about how the audience reacts. Your edit regarding the difference between this and You Monster! seems to hint at it. Does this mean that it's actually an Audience Reaction? If so, then I'll put it on that index pronto. This might convince Tropers to not be so reliant on what the author says as opposed to what we actually see.
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Geronimo!Complete Monster is one of those odd tropes that could be objective if only people would agree on what it means. That's why it goes in the YMMV index. Audience Reactions aren't just things that fans argue over, it's things that only exist in the minds of fans. Hatedom, for example, is about how the fans react to a work. There isn't a hatedom in the work.
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