Duplicate Trope: Dirty Business

There's actually three different tropes that, as far as I can tell, are essentially the same — Dirty Business, I Did What I Had to Do, and Necessary Evil. All three are "something morally unpleasant, ambiguous, or unquestionably evil — done only to prevent a greater wrong". I Did What I Had to Do is a Stock Phrase for a character justifying such behavior when called out on it, and Dirty Business seems to be mostly about heroic characters doing questionably-heroic things while Necessary Evil seems to be mostly focused on villainous characters with questionably-villainous goals, but all in all they're all three really describing the same thing and I can't legitimately find a clear-cut distinction between any of them.

I think there is a distinction worth making, but all three tropes as-is are too muddled to do so effectively. Here's what I would suggest:

• Dirty Business: Something isn't actually wrong, but makes you feel guilty anyway. eg, killing someone in self defense when there was no other way to save yourself, delivering a Mercy Kill to a Zombie Infectee.
• Necessary Evil: Something that would have been evil or wrong if considered by itself, but was necessary to prevent a greater wrong. eg, killing an innocent to save many innocents. (I'd also say that doing evil to enable a perceived good doesn't count — that'd be a form of Utopia Justifies the Means.)
• I Did What I Had to Do: It's a stock phrase and doesn't seem to substantially different than Dirty Business or Necessary Evil, I'd just say sort its examples into one of the above and cut it.

Thoughts?

edited 1st Jul '14 5:42:40 PM by NativeJovian

I think that we need a bit more discussion on the tropes, but I agree that there's probably only two tropes here, not three.

I Did What I Had to Do ought to get disambiguated on accounts of the many wicks.

Also, note Well-Intentioned Extremist as well.

Now that I look, I don't notice much difference between Dirty Business and Necessarily Evil (which is the correct spelling; Necessary Evil is a disambiguation) except for hero/villain doing it.

Wick check, by the way?

Dirty Business has 421 wicks total. Here's a wick check of some random ones:

Used as "doing things that are necessary, but questionably moral"

• Be All My Sins Remembered - Subtrope of Dirty Business, trope is about a person feels unworthy of the praise that's heaped on them because they feel they were "forced, through circumstances or personal weakness, to do terrible things."
• BrokenAesop.Live Action TV - Convincing a previously-pacifistic race to genocide another as a Guilt-Free Extermination War is "not treated as Dirty Business, or anything other than a happy ending."
• Tropes A to F - Character considers a genocide unavoidable, but Dirty Business. (I Did What I Had to Do and Be All My Sins Remembered also potholed in description.)
• KnightTemplar.Literature - Fanatic character considers letting trivial offenses slide when faced with bigger priorities to be Dirty Business.
• Characters.Mage The Awakening - Potholed undering a Necessarily Evil entry, about doing bad things for a good cause (and feeling guilty about it).
• Characters.Mass Effect 2 Party Members - Listed under Mordin, who is troubled by morally questionable things he's done that seemed necessary at the time.
• New Meat - From the Ciaphas Cain example, soldiers consider massacring allied soldiers to keep a state secret to be Dirty Business.
• The Nexus Series - Character uses technology he has access to to Mind Rape anyone who misuses said technology. "The hypocrisy is not lost on him."
• Technical Pacifist - In the Fanfic.Mass Effect Human Revolution entry, one character tries to be a Technical Pacifist, but go far enough "and he won't even feel bad about ending you."
• The TSAB – Acturus War - Character regrets that using an attack powerful enough to defeat an enemy also killed allied personnel nearby.
• Quotes.The Unfettered - "There are some acts so ruthless, Dirty Business some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them." (I Did What I Hadto Do and Necessarily Evil also potholed in the same entry.)
• Would Be Rude to Say "Genocide" - "Maybe it wasn't 'right', but it was necessary". (I Did What I Had to Do also potholed in the same phrase.)
• Your Approval Fills Me with Shame - "So our once-spotless protagonist has just performed a bit of Dirty Business, or worse, in a moment of weakness, they've done something unambiguously wrong, perhaps even lowering themselves to the level of the villain."

Used as "something character feels guilty about"

• Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess - Used in reference to a character alienating his friends in pursuit of a cause.
• Bring News Back - Used in reference to Survivor's Guilt (ie, feeling guilty that you were chosen to survive instead of others).
• Crysis - One of the listed tropes for the work, description says that feeling regret for doing something wrong doesn't absolve one of guilt for it.

Used as "business activity that is criminal or morally bankrupt"

• RealMenWearPink.Anime And Manga - Potholed as "kills people for money". Character is described as a Blood Knight who enjoys his job as a Professional Killer.
• The Boxing Episode - Potholed as "entering a world of underground fighting".

Unclear

• The Chains of Commanding - Character gives a speech "about the incredible amount of Dirty Business he's had to do over the years".
• Freckles - "Black Jack realizes this when he thinks he has a chance with Angel."
• Private Military Contractors - Used in The Expendables example, with the CIA "looking to pass off some Dirty Business onto their shoulders."
• The Lost Fleet: "Reading a private letter."
• The Virgin Queen: "Portrayals of the Mary Queen of Scots affair portray it as this, when they're not casting Elizabeth as a flat-out villain."

Zero Content Example

• Gaunt's Ghosts
• Shifters

So that's 13 used as defined on the Dirty Business page, 3 about regretting something (but not necessarily because it was wrong), 2 for criminal activity, 5 unclear, and 2 ZCE, out of 25 total. Or in other words, about 50% definitely right, 20% definite misuse, and 30% unsure

And here's some wicks for Necessarily Evil (which has 635 total):

Used as "doing evil things that must be done for good reasons"

• Characters.Assassins Creed The Assassins - The Assassin Order "have to do the things no one else can to safeguard the world from the Templar threat, even if it crosses moral lines."
• Characters.Cerberus Daily News Terminus Space - "Understood that the actions of Cerberus are morally wrong, but believed that were necessary."
• Quotes.Coolman229 - refers to Ozymandias of Watchmen, who lied and murdered in an attempt to prevent nuclear war.
• Characters.Dragon Age - character "recognizes that [action] is a horrible thing to do, and does seems guilty about it, but he honestly believes it's for the best."
• Characters.Exalted Exalted - Potholed as "had no choice but to do some awful things to save all Creation".
• Fanfic.I Am Skantarios - used twice on the page in the context of being cruel to others because the world is a cruel place.
• Lawful Evil - "he never claims that what he does is right or just, only necessary"
• Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Refers to Celestial Being, essentially a terrorist group whose stated goal is to bring about world peace by killing anyone and everyone who attempts to start conflict.
• JustForFun.Surprisingly Similar Characters - Used to describe the actions of a Fake Defector who was Good All Along (The Boss and/or Itachi Uchiha).
• Characters.The Walking Dead Real Monsters - Character Would Hurt a Child to keep the rest of the group safe.

Used as "evil that must exist"

• Rome: Total War - Describes having to slaughter citizens to prevent "overpopulation and squalor" due to game mechanics.
• Characters.Neverwinter Nights 2 - Describes a coven of hags, who are personally loathsome, but have much valuable knowledge that would be lost without them
• Disney.Wreck It Ralph - Describes video game villains, who have to be bad because games need an antagonist.

Unclear

• AGodAmI.Fan Fic - character "views herself as a Necessarily Evil murderer".
• Fanfic.Flesh And Blood - "How [character] sees himself".
• Honor Before Reason - Used in the trope description (as something an example of Honor Before Reason wouldn't be able to do)
• Magical Girl - "The story follows a magical girl who believes she must become a Necessarily Evil in order to stop other girls from going too far."
• Nikita - Group of assassins was meant to be a "necessary evil".
• LetsPlay.Twitch Plays Pokemon Red - Describes Zapdos, who is one of the more powerful team members, despite the fans apparently arbitrarily deciding it was evil(?)
• MARDEK - "It's stated that despite dark generally being evil, having something to surmount encourages progress." Not sure if that's "dark must be evil" or "evil must exist (to allow for progress)".
• Decoy Trial - Character believes that the people who raped and murdered another character were Necessarily Evil.

Zero Content Example

• Aristocrats Are Evil
• Characters.Hakuouki
• Roleplay.The Gamers Alliance - three times on the same page, no less. Two are potholes to character names, and one is in a trope list with no attached explanation
• TabletopGame.Star Drive - The Techno Spiders

10 for "must be evil for good reason", 3 for "evil thing that must exist", 8 unclear from context, 4 ZCE, out of 25 total.

edited 1st Aug '14 12:20:55 AM by NativeJovian

Shoot the Dog is also very related... it's defined as an ambiguously amoral act that's the most pragmatic thing at the moment.

Shoot the Dog seems distinct to me. Dirty Business and Necessarily Evil are about the conflict between immediate actions and greater consequences — eg, doing a small evil thing to prevent a large evil thing. Shoot the Dog isn't about immediate morality vs big picture morality, it's about immediate morality vs pragmatism. Dirty Business is about doing something that feels wrong, but leads to something that's right. Shoot the Dog is about doing something that feels wrong because it's the easiest option at the moment.

Of course, rereading through the trope description for Shoot the Dog, (ie, "Shooting the Dog is an ostensibly heroic character doing something that is necessary but morally gray") my impression of the difference isn't actually held up. But of course, Shoot the Dog is a Trope Of Legend, so that's a whole other kettle of fish.

How many tropes for "good people doing bad things for good reasons" do we have?

edited 1st Aug '14 2:50:00 PM by NativeJovian

Well, in fairness, there are quite a few ways for good people to do bad things.

My impression of Dirty Business based on the examples I'm familiar with (and this is in line with the Laconic and the first sentence of the description) is that it's focused more on how it makes you feel when you're doing the act. Dirty Business might not necessarily, strictly speaking, be an evil act—for example, acquiescing to blackmail or killing a bad guy in self defense could qualify—but it leaves an evil taste in your mouth, and it disgusts you to have to do it. You feel like you're soiling your hands with it. It explores moral dilemmas in a different way than Necessary Evil by coming at them from a Red Oni emotional angle (I have to do this, but it feels so wrong!) rather than a Blue Oni logical angle (evil is justified if good is not a viable alternative).

So Dirty Business would be "it was the right thing, but damnit, it felt wrong", while I Did What I Had to Do would be "it may have been wrong, but it was the only way to prevent something worse"? I can see that. There's definitely some overlap there, but that's probably okay — they're pretty similar tropes.

That would also have the effect of making Dirty Business be about self-recrimination (a character questioning their own actions) and I Did What I Had to Do be about a character defending their own actions to someone else, which helps differentiate them further.

I'm not sure how Necessarily Evil would fit in, though.

edited 28th Aug '14 7:14:25 PM by NativeJovian

Clock is set.

Clock's up; locking for inactivity.