Too obscure: : The Kobayashi Maru

No, it's not an otaku-hijacked trope, it's a reference to Star Trek II. It has a decent amout of wicks, (125) but this extremely common trope could do a lot better, not even all of the listed woks have it referenced on their own page.

Disastrous Training Sim Opening would be a lot more accessible.

Its not always an opening. Eitherway, 126 wicks is alot. Decent amount of inbounds too. I require misuse or better arguments for a rename.

I think it should be renames on the grounds of being misleading.

I know very little about Star Trek, so to me, 'Kobayashi Maru' means a test that is impossible to complete, used to examine the character of the person taking it. The trope, on the other hand, describes a character failing a training programme, and spending the rest of the episode learning to overcome the factors that led to their failure.

I'll check the wicks when I have a chance, but it looks like a rename is a good idea.

"not even all of the listed woks have it referenced on their own page. "

That doesn't imply a problem with the name. That means that the people adding the examples to the Trope are being lazy/forgetful, as they should be doing both at the same time.

But normally, there are equal chances of people adding a trope name to a work page, only to forget listing it on the trope page, and vice versa, so these two even out over time.

If a page has a significantly longer example list than wicks, it can mean that it gets new examples when people are reading the page, but they don't remember adding it when they are on work pages, because the name doesn't come to their minds.

edited 12th Mar '11 2:59:40 PM by EternalSeptember

If there is that kind of Misuse, that would make sense to rename.

"The rest of the episode will typically focus on his overcoming whatever character flaw prevented him from succeeding in simulation."

It's not required, just often follows from the actual trope, which is the unpassable test.

Off the top of my head, just yesterday I saw it used in the page for Starcraft II for a generally hopeless last stand that wasn't a training sim but a vision of a Bad Future.

Do we have a trope for "patently, truly, hopeless situation"? Or at least one that ends in Fission Mailure?

Even if this doesn't get renamed, I think the description needs streamlining to make the point of the trope clearer. As it is, it has a lot of asides about the trope namer and about what the trope might be, but doesn't do a good job emphasizing what the trope is.

False Crucible's brief description of The Kobayashi Maru is far more informative.

I failed Guess That Trope because I thought it would be a character trope (like most tropes starting in "The"). My best guess was "Some kind of... cool... Japanese... guy?"

As for being obscure, well, it's my own fault that I haven't seen any Star Trek besides the 2009 movie, but on the other hand, there is absolutely no hint of what the trope means in the name... None!

umm this was in the 2009 movie...

Anyway the actual test has gotten a ton of references outside of Star Trek. IMO redirects only.

To be fair, the version of the test in the 2009 movie isn't an example, since we know it's a test when it happens. Only the Wrath Of Khan version is an example.

But most people think of the Wrath Of Khan version

edited 13th Mar '11 8:34:38 PM by Sackett

To be fair, most of the time I have heard "Kobayashi Maru" used its to refer to a no-win scenario. Not a training sequence.

edited 13th Mar '11 8:36:23 PM by Ghilz

There is alot of overlap with Danger Room Cold Open.

And therein lies the problem: The Kobayashi Maru makes people think of what the Kobayashi Maru scenario is instead of what the trope is, except for the occasional time when they overlap. I can see The Kobayshi Maru describing no-win scenarios in training exercises as a Secret Test of Character with the current page getting a new title.

On the other hand, there's no evidence of misuse within TV Tropes itself, which makes this one of those tropes where everyone within the community gets it but people outside of it might not.

edited 13th Mar '11 8:56:23 PM by MC42

Misuse Check:

• Oceans Eleven: Incorrect Simply used to refer to a trial run of the burglary. This one is interrupted and does not fail, and is never mentioned again, so not this trope.
• Star Trek New Frontier: Incorrect Just a pothole for the Trope Namer, no indication it applies.
• Batman The Brave And The Bold: Correct
• Cutting the Knot: Incorrect Used in an example as an unwinnable scenario.
• Bakuryuu Sentai Abaranger: Unknown Not enough info given.
• Aqua Teen Hunger Force: Mostly Correct Kinda mixed in with Secret Test of Character: but close enough.
• Dungeon Bypass: Incorrect Gratuitous Pot Hole for the Trope Namer without rhymes or reason.
• Series.Legion Of Super-Heroes: Unknown Not enough info given.
• Not Cheating Unless You Get Caught: Incorrect Gratuitous Pot Hole for the Trope Namer without rhymes or reason.
• Power Rangers SPD: Unknown Not enough info given.
• Power Rangers Ninja Storm: Unknown Not enough info given.
• Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue: Unknown Not enough info given.
• Otherland: Unknown Not enough context given.
• Permission to Speak Freely: Incorrect Gratuitous Pot Hole for the Trope Namer without rhymes or reason.
• FanFic.Marissa Picard: Incorrect Gratuitous Pot Hole for the Trope Namer without rhymes or reason. Twice
• Logic Bomb: Incorrect Gratuitous Pot Hole for the Trope Namer without rhymes or reason.

Total: 8 Incorrects. 6 Unknowns. 2 Corrects. Yup there's misuse aplenty. Even assuming all the unknowns are correct (and I doubt it), we have about 50% misuse.

Also, it doesn't help that the description shows TWO Tropes.

First part: A failed mission revealed (to the audience) to be a test. Characters are told what they did wrong.

Second Part: (What is the most common use of the term): A test that is unwinnable. Characters learn either to deal with an unwinnable scenarion, or Take a Third Option. This is the definition given by the Laconic page

edited 13th Mar '11 9:52:20 PM by Ghilz

Did 9 more to get a round sample of 25

• Instant Sedation: Correct
• George Washington: Partially Correct Gets the simulation part, but kind of too vague to be sure of correctness.
• Goldeneye Rogue Agent: Correct
• Hellcats: Incorrect Only used to refer to an impossible mission. No simulation part.
• Regenesis: Correct
• Shoot the Hostage: Used twice:
  • First time is Correct
  • Second time is another gratuitous pothole, so Incorrect
• Sergey Lukyanenko: Unknown, not enough details.
• Series.The Avengers: Probably Correct Kind of lacking in detail, but IIRC it's an example.

So grand total of 10 Incorrect. 8 Correct. 7 Unknown. Still rather dismal.

edited 13th Mar '11 10:05:26 PM by Ghilz

My first instinct was that this was a trope about unwinnable tests.

I was wrong.

My feeling on this, since it's poorly defined on the page, to clean up the description and wicks, record which pages it's wicked on right now, and give it three months. If the trope continues to be misused in new wicks over those three months, then rename.

However, it's a dated pop culture reference, since the most recent example doesn't appear to be an example of the trope, and the trope namer could refer to multiple things. So I wouldn't object to a flat-out rename, either.

The example on Otherland is incorrect, so I removed it. It is neither an unwinnable scenario nor a secret test of character. The only thing it has in common with this trope is that the audience isn't initially clued into the fact that it's not real.

I agree that the reference is becoming dated as Wrath Of Khan fades into pop culture history.

edited 14th Mar '11 6:33:25 AM by Fighteer

Right, here is a complete analysis of the trope's usage.

Correct

1. Morton's Fork (but vague)
2. Star Trek II The Wrath Of Khan
3. Aqua Teen Hunger Force
4. Crest Of The Stars
5. Cutting the Knot
6. Danger Room Cold Open
7. Fake Action Prologue
8. False Crucible
9. George Washington
10. Goldeneye Rogue Agent
11. Hidden Purpose Test
12. Instant Sedation
13. Trope Distinctions/J-R
14. Laconical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions (appears twice)
15. Never Say Neveragain
16. Overused Scifi Plot Devices
17. Paintball Episode
18. Regenesis
19. Shooting Gallery
20. Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies
21. Secret Test
22. Shooting Gallery
23. Simulated Urban Combat Area
24. Sorry, I Left the BGM On
25. Series.Legion of Super-Heroes
26. Roboship
27. Space Quest
28. StarCraft II
29. Star Trek Elite Force
30. Stockholm Syndrome
31. Tap on the Head
32. Series.The Avengers
33. The Magic Christian
34. Time Bomb
35. Time Squad
36. Fridge.Webcomics
37. Wire Dilemma
38. Chuck
39. Proscenium Reveal
40. The Acts Of Caine

Incorrect

1. Batman The Brave And The Bold
2. You Can't Fight Fate (uses it to refer to the specific training programme in Star Trek, rather than the trope).
3. Celebrity Paradox (ditto)
4. Distress Call (ditto)
5. Dungeon Bypass (ditto)
6. Fictional Video Game
7. Crazy Awesome.Film (uses it to refer to the test of that name)
8. Final Speech (ditto)
9. Freudian Excuse (ditto)
10. Hellcats
11. Instant A.I.: Just Add Water! (used to refer to the specific test of that name)
12. Laconical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions (used twice)
13. Leverage
14. PrettyCoolGuy.Live Action TV (uses it to refer to the test of that name)
15. Logic Bomb (ditto)
16. WMG.Marissa Picard (ditto)
17. Fanfic.Marissa Picard (ditto)
18. Not Cheating Unless You Get Caught (ditto)
19. Permission to Speak Freely (ditto)
20. Self Imposed Challenge
21. Sergey Lukyanenko
22. Shoot the Hostage (used for the specific test of that name)
23. Stargate Universe
24. Awesome.Star Trek (used for the specific test of that name)
25. Film.Star Trek (ditto)
26. YMMV.Star Trek 2009 (ditto)
27. Star Trek Bridge Commander (ditto)
28. Star Trek First Contact
29. Star Trek Voyager
30. Take a Third Option
31. Tropers.The Dire Flamingohawkrobin
32. The First Law of Trope Examples
33. The Kirk (uses it for the specifi test of that name)
34. The Knights Who Say "Squee!"
35. Laconic.The Kobayashi Maru
36. Unwinnable by Design
37. Whateley Universe
38. Training "Accident"
39. X Wing series
40. Broken Aesop
41. Endless Game
42. Loophole Abuse
43. Meet Cute
44. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero
45. JustBugsMe.Star Trek 2009 (uses it for the specific test of that name)
46. Star Trek III The Search For Spock (ditto)
47. Awesome.Star Trek Novels (ditto)
48. Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country (ditto)
49. YMMV.Transcendence

Unknown

1. Oceans Eleven
2. Star Trek New Frontier
3. We'll Meet Again
4. Avalon
5. Bakuryuu Sentai Abaranger
6. Cute Shotaro Boy
7. Die Another Day
8. Ex Machina
9. Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue
10. Power Rangers Ninja Storm
11. Power Rangers SPD
12. The Man With The Golden Gun
13. Characters.The Wire
14. Virtual Training Simulation
15. Fanfic/Star Trek: First Flight

Irrelevant (ie troper pages, indices, etc)

1. Disastrous Training Sim Opening
2. TitleBin.P To S
3. Secret Test of Character (just says that the tropes are related)
4. Speculative Fiction Tropes
5. Star Trek (just says it's the Trope Namer)
6. Kobayashi Maru
7. The Kobayashi Maru
8. Trope Namers.Film
9. Renamed Tropes

edited 14th Mar '11 10:02:09 AM by VampireBuddha

Wait the Laconic is wrong?

Anyway I see little difference between this and Danger Room Cold Open merge and make this one about the true No win test?

The difference between The Kobayashi Maru and a Danger Room Cold Open is that The Kobayashi Maru is presented as being real until it ends and it's revealed to the audience that it's a simulation, whereas the audience knows the Danger Room Cold Open is a simulation right off the bat. Maybe. Clear lines need to be made between the two as well as between Danger Room Cold Open and any other Virtual Training Simulation because if the audience knows it's virtual right off the bat, there's no difference in narrative between a cold open and any other virtual training. The Kobayashi Maru should be reworked for all no-win tests, the Danger Room Cold Open should be reworked to be what The Kobayashi Maru is now and renamed Bait And Switch Training, since the audience is baited into believing it's real before the reveal is made that it isn't.

As I read it, Danger Room Cold Open seems to be "a low-stakes situation that's used to show the audience what each team member's role is", which is totally orthogonal to The Kobayashi Maru — any given scene could be both, either, or neither.

Of course, it would help if the description of Danger Room Cold Open wasn't TOTALLY FILLED with sentences talking about what "usually" or "often" happens rather than sentences that actually define the trope.