During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Moron
Well alright then, sorry for asking, but since those videos were literally the only context I had I wanted to make sure I was understanding it correctly. Clearly I didn't, so sorry for bogging the thread down.
Cut Roman
The Draftsman of Doom
Further more, (and this is more personal advice that I picked up the past year) if something gives you a pause or if you feel soemthing is ambiguous, try to weigh canon evidence one way or another...of course it helps to bring it up in PM's to help verify.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Wild Child
Cut Roman. Now, a potential candidate of my own.
What's the Work?
White Snake (2019) is a 2019 Chinese animated movie based on the famous fable Legend of the White Snake. In the film, the titular white snake, Blanca, a snake demon, loses her memory after a failed assassination attempt on the Daoist leader, the Dark General, who had been targeting snakes for his dark rituals. Rescued by a human snake catcher, Xuan, the pair embark on a journey to recover her memories, falling deeply in love in the process, all the while pursued by both the Daoist, and Blanca's own master, the Snake Master.
Who is the Master? What Does She Do?
The matriarchal ruler of the snake demon clan, the Snake Master is responsible for instructing her clan, teaching them to view all humans as evil and to be killed. Forced into hiding due to the Dark General's machinations, the Master tasked Blanca with assassinating him, despite the latter's insistence that she wasn't ready, giving her a jade hairpin that would drawn its victims essence. Following Blanca's failure and subsequent amnesia, the rest of the clan comes to believe she's turned traitor after seeing her associating with Xuan. Her sister, Verta, vouches for her and is sent by the Master to retrieve her, under threat of the Scorching Death Scales, which will kill her if she fails to find her sister within three days.
Learning that the General is drawing close, having learned that Blanca is a demon, the Master mobilizes her clan to emerge, kill the General, and slaughter Xuan's snake catcher village. She successfully ambushes the General, using the hairpin to drain his essence, before promptly ordering her clan to assault the village and kill everyone. As the clan assaults the village, the Master reveals her true intentions: observing the General, she had realized that if he could drain the essence of the clan, so could she, and betrays her clan, draining their essence, reverting them to normal snakes. Blanca, in her giant snake form, attempts to avenge her clan, but the Master transforms into her true form of a giant two-headed snake and overpowers her as well, draining her power and leaving her on the brink of death. As she's about to finish her off, Xuan activates the General's blizzard device, freezing the Master into ice and disintegrating her body and soul.
Mitigating factors?
While at first it seems like she's just trying to protect her clan from the General, the ending reveals any redeeming qualities she had was a fluke, and she merely wanted to get the General out of the way so she could take her clan's power for herself.
Heinousness wise, she has to compete with the General, who has snakes and demons captured to drain their essence for himself, and even Blanca herself destroys a portion of a village after receiving an accidental power boost from draining the Little Daoist's magic, but I'd say the Master still stands out for her willingness to harm both humans and her own kind, trying to have an entire village slaughtered before betraying her own kind and draining their essence.
Final Verdict?
Your call.
Why so serious?
Sure to the Snake Master, I just watched Sabre Sparks review.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Master and Cut Roman.
Goku Black
Yes to the Master.
The Moron
The Master
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to the Master. The General also getting an EP?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Bachmann and the Master. Cut Roman.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to the Snake Master
Yes to the Snake Master.
Look...I'm just finding a lot of times what people think is ambiguity? Isn't. At all. And when I SEE it, it's so obviously mitigating that it's kinda shocking to me it went up at all.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
and speaking of ? There's one or two other candiates of mine I'm planning to cut with that in mind.
Snake Master. I had a feeling she counted, but I couldn't find a way to watch the film to find out for myself.
And I appreciate how open and honest you are Beast and that's the right attitude, your honour, intelligence or any other moral or analytical capabilities aren't what's being brought up for question with these characters, it's just a matter of whether or not a quirk of there's is a deal-breaker.
Honestly the ones that annoy me more are like that shitty King Arthur movie where the villain sacrificed his family and cried about it only for people to still keep pushing the "But he still did it for power" argument when it's clear in no uncertain terms he loved them in spite of his own greed or whatever the deal with that MHA baddie was who killed his only loved one.
That's not what I'm worried about, it's more that there was some pretty bad takes of mine I made a few years ago that need some fixing up.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
The Brazillian Dog!
Someone already proposed the Blob from 1988 movie? since it's not considered a Non-malicious Monster?
Speaking of King Arthur films, I found this on the film page for Even Evil Has Loved Ones page, not really sure what to make of it.
In the 2004 King Arthur, Saxon King Cerdic is a violent Blood Knight who invades Britain mainly for a campaign of Rape, Pillage, and Burn, but he does seem to care for his son and second-in-command Cynric. He threatens to cut his son's tongue out if he openly defies his authority again, but he seems quite willing to die by his hands if his son were strong enough to overthrow him. Later he refuses to kill Cynric for a defeat against Arthur's forces when Cynric offers his life, and when he sends in the last of Cynric's auxiliaries into an obvious death trap during the final battle he keeps him by his side to keep him from harm.
Edited by k410ren on Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:29:18 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Cerdic and Cynric's relationship can't really be qualified as love. Cerdic treats him like an idiot, threatens him and gives him no warmth or affection whatsoever. I'm not even sure how they got Cerdic would be willing to die by Cynric's hand because when Cynric yaps up in support of a Saoxn defying Cerdic, Cerdic kills the man and asks Cynric if he's challenging him, before adding if he ever does so again, he better be armed. "Keep a civil tongue in your mouth or I'll cut it out."
The blob doesn't count and it should be quite obvious why.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:31:09 AM
Nah, the Blob is a biological germ warfare weapon that gained life and is acting on predatory instinct, if anything.
Okay, after looking back on the movie, this one I've been meaning to Cut. Really, looking back I am surprised this got up and looking forward to getting rid of this one.
We're cutting Verna Sawyer; yes she is a narcissist, yes she is possessive of her son, is mentally and emotionally manipulative of him, and grooms him into what she wants him to be; she is a low functioning sociopath; causes a helluva lot of bloodshed and is downright proud to have brought about her son's mental downfall; yes, the movie plays her up as a Hate Sink towards the end...but she is also delusional as all Hell, and seems to genuinely think she is being loving and caring towards him.
The movie makes it clear she is a toxic mother and influence on her son, but really that's nothing special when you take into account they are the Sawyer's and they are not the most stable family in cinema. Looking back on her character, it honestly feels this kind of shit is normal to her. In fact, her delusions go as far, that she seems to genuinely believe that her murderous, cannibalsitic family are innocent victims in all of this. This also beside the wonky continuity between every sequel in this franchise.
She's Cersei Lannister if she where a cannibalsitic hillbilly, is what I'm saying.
Edited by Beast on Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:31:08 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Woagh
Yeah, cut momma Sawyer. I never really saw her as a CM, but I thought that was because I simply haven't seen the film.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Snake Master
Might I ask what’s causing a lot if confusion
Cut Sawyer
If your not sure guys on something. Maybe ask someone in pms in advance to get a second opinion.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."