During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Thing is, Matthew is pretty clearly dominant to Izzy. The FBI realize she's not in charge when they notice her "showing off" for someone, which is revealed to be Matthew, who pretends to be a hostage. Thus, all the mess caused by Izzy and her accomplices the Strattons were also presumably to put on a good "show" for Matthew, even though he never gets his hands dirty himself.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I remember that. If Izzy's trying to put on a show for Matt, then from that we can infer she cares about his opinion of her.
Hmm, good point. Alright, I'll concede Izzy doesn't count.
A total has-been.
We agreed to get rid of Junko? Huh.
Junko in the first VN was a bit too hard to figure out. The possibility that she is a Complete Monster mainly comes from the fact that in every other installment to the franchise, she's there as the ultimate evil without any good motivations or truly redeeming qualities.
edited 8th Apr '14 4:13:14 PM by ANewMan
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
To both Izzy and Matthew. They're really notable only for being the villains in a two-parter, and almost every other two-parter villain has them beat in heinousness (even ones that aren't on the page like Flynn, the Turners, and Frank Breitkopf) as do many one-shot villains (the Roycewoods, Cy, etc.)
edited 8th Apr '14 4:20:34 PM by HamburgerTime
A total has-been.
Rando murdered 99 masters after learning their techniques and is going for his 100th kill in Genkai
His 99 kills were all offscreen and he didn't get anywhere close to that 100th kill since it's more than likely Genkai could have dealt with him all along but chose to let the competitors take care of him instead. And while the anime played up his evilness more, as it did with Gouki, Rando's tortures aren't nearly as severe as Suzaku's. So I'm not sure how he's more heinous than Tarukane, who's dealing in things far away from Rando anyway.
Sakyo tortured animals for fun and is attempting to open a portal from the demon world into the human world just because he wants to see what will happen
Tarukane tortures demons and apparitions out of greed. That other part's a good point, but Sakyo's thinking on a larger scale than his fellow crime bosses.
and the Sensui Seven are a group of seven people trying to open another portal from the demon world into the human world because they believe Humans Are Bastards and deserve to be killed.
And Tarukane's the kind of human who would give them such an impression.
In contrast, Gonzo tortures one girl to make her cry money. Other than trying to kill the heroes that's pretty much it. As an incredibly wealthy man who knows about the existence of demons and the supernatural, he has the resources to do much more but doesn't. In short, not nearly heinous enough to qualify.
He actually also killed one of his men who tried to flee with Yukina, and had since deliberately used that incident as a psychological hold on Yukina in order to ensure she never tries to resist him and escape again. There was also the matter of gene splicing experiments and demon torture/test subjects he kept down in his basement, like that "Helen" beast that Younger Toguro killed. Oh, and he calls up his friends just so he can make bets on people's lives that he thinks he'll win, thus getting him even more money. Profiting is also why he tortures Yukina for her tear jewels, and keep in mind that he's got a mansion and all sorts of evidence that suggest he's got more than enough money. This guy was just all about doing sickening things with supernatural beings out of pure greed.
If it's not shown... well, if he's never shown personally engaging in torture then I don't think the actions of other club members should be held against him. If there's no evidence he personally tortured demons, then I'd say he'd fail the heinous standard when compared with other members of the club who did engage in torture For the Evulz. Of course, I tend not to find enablers as culpable as the actual criminals. From what I remember, Gonzo himself seemed more interested in gambling and money than torture.
In the manga, at least, we do see him ordering his men to torture Yukina, laughing and roaring out "YES, MORE! CRY MORE TEARS! MAKE 'EM POUR!" as he does so. And of course, there's also the mental torture he inflicts with Yukina's would-be rescuer's death.
His 99 kills were all offscreen and he didn't get anywhere close to that 100th kill since it's more than likely Genkai could have dealt with him all along but chose to let the competitors take care of him instead. And while the anime played up his evilness more, as it did with Gouki, Rando's tortures aren't nearly as severe as Suzaku's. So I'm not sure how he's more heinous than Tarukane, who's dealing in things far away from Rando anyway.
As I said before, even if the kills were offscreen, they still contribute to the heinous standard of the work. Rando would be more heinous because 99 murders would outweigh the torture of one girl, which, as I'll point out, is the only thing Gonzo's entry currently mentions.
In the manga, at least, we do see him ordering his men to torture Yukina, laughing and roaring out "YES, MORE! CRY MORE TEARS! MAKE 'EM POUR!" as he does so. And of course, there's also the mental torture he inflicts with Yukina's would-be rescuer's death.
No I meant torturing for fun. I know Tarukane was shown torturing Yukine for her tears, but that was only because her tears were valuable. My initial argument was that because he was doing it for wealth that made it Pragmatic Villainy and it wouldn't be as heinous as his fellow club members who tortured demons For the Evulz.
Anyway, after reviewing some things on the wiki, I'll concede Tarukane qualifies but only in the English Dub. The reason for this is because the English Dub is the only version that says Tarukane founded the Black Black Club, and the wiki confirmed the purpose of the Club was to torture demons, bathe in their blood, and things of that nature, solely For the Evulz. It seems the profitable aspects (gene splicing, death matches) only came later. I originally thought it was the other way around: profitable exploitation of the supernatural first, groups torturing for fun coming later. So I'd be alright with keeping Tarukane provided his entry is expanded to mention the club's practice of torture and provided it says he's only a qualifier in the English Dub.
edited 8th Apr '14 5:01:08 PM by OccasionalExister
Re: Practical Incarnation - he's getting a rewrite.
For A Song Of Ice And Fire, there's actually a potential Complete Monster who is missing from the current list: Euron Greyjoy. Some of his antics are on a par with Ramsay Bolton's (granted: he doesn't use flaying — he tends to be more of a mix-it-up kind of guy by using character assassination to horrible degrees) and he uses the PR he gets arguably more effectively than that... charmer... does.
Also, he's far more deliberate about his antics than Joffrey Baratheon, even if he enjoys them just as much. What is telling is that other Ironborn would consider a lot of what he's done truly heinous should they find out about all of it. He breaks his own society's rules, but gets away with it because it's so far being perceived as "strong" — and, he's got Plausible Deniability on his side. As well as all the spin he's using.
A list of his monstrous moments are as follows:-
Just by being an Ironborn reaver, Euron has a large body count to his name. But, this is not exactly unusual. It's how he goes about doing it that is... distinctly different. He breaks all those pesky, unwritten rules their society has about how you go about killing, raping and pillaging — and, it appears, mainly just because he can. And, you're not really supposed to make a joke or find the funny when it comes to the very sacred act of taking the Iron Price — but, he constantly does (and, it's also hinted he doesn't mind going for the Gold, either — as long as nobody finds out). Not to mention he screws around with which targets you're supposed to go for: why bother with old revenge and the same-old, boring loot from the usual sheep, when you can focus on the rich, interesting and taboo stuff from cursed lands? This was enough to have got him exiled by his brother.
He deals in slaves. This is something Ironborn are not supposed to do. Serfs and saltwives are one thing (they do actually have rights, even if they suck): getting involved in the slave trade is something else entirely. He manages to make it seem like all he does is capture, de-tongue and then free them to pirate along with him. But... It's more than hinted there is much more going on there. The way he just threw the life of the horn-blower away for a demonstration of what magic he controls is a very good indication that there is a lot we don't particularity want to know about.
He directly involves himself with Blood and Fire Magic that has nothing to do with the Drowned God. This... is very borderline behaviour for an Ironborn. True, his brother, Victarion starts doing so himself... but, you can look to acute frustration at Euron's continued managing to get away with it as a distinct part-factor in that.
Kinslaying: the timing of his brother's demise was rather too fortuitous. Also, he didn't, technically, go about spilling that precious Ironborn blood directly. Just in case. It's strongly hinted that the dragon eggs he's supposedly thrown into the sea in an openly "typical" Euron Greyjoy moment of over-the-top insanity were, in fact, used to pay a Faceless man to kill his brother without spilling a drop of blood: falling from Pyke's walkways into the sea below can count as "throwing into the sea", right? Also, this fits his... love of using Black Comedy, Irony and Metaphorically True statements.
Dear Lord, the things he's done to Victarion and Aeron... Aeron has nightmares of what are strongly hinted as being repeated sexual abuse as a child. So far, not into the Complete bracket for Monster in this series: although, starting to rape your youngest brother when you're probably not much older than fourteen, if that, yourself is pushing precociousness. Most likely raping Victarian's saltwife (or actual wife, it's a bit unclear which she was) and then taunting him about it is getting there. Knowing damn well that your straight-laced brother would stick to the letter of the law and kill her himself because of it, so you didn't do so yourself (why give him grounds for lawful revenge?) and then throwing it into his face? Nasty. Very, very nasty.
OK: arranging marriages that the various parties aren't all that keen on isn't especially heinous for Westeros. However, you do push things when you marry away your niece to a man just about old enough to be her grandfather without her actually being there at all. And, precede to do so by making the stand-in for the bride a seal shoved into a dress. In a very public wedding, no less, just so that she cannot set foot back home without being carted off to her new husband (as, humiliating or not, it sticks to Ironborn law), as well as to completely undermine what reputation and position she had left.
Euron consistently goes that extra mile to either creep out, humiliate and/or eliminate his targets — no matter who they are or how they're related to him. In Westeros, that's a big no-no; Ironborn or not. And, he doesn't care a bit about "socially acceptable", but sticks to the letter of those laws that are in stone while making it look like a jape. It's part of what makes him effective. He's as scary as all get-out because he's always coming from the skewed angle.
Euron may count before the end, it's true, but he hasn't done enough quite yet.
A total has-been.
I don't think it's right to say a character only qualifies in a dub. I'd say he qualifies by virtue of being the most truly repellent and heinous non-supernatural powered human being in the series who's as despicable as his setting allows him to be, and I don't see how torturing for profiteering out of greed is any less heinous than torturing For the Evulz. (If anything, torturing for self-interest related reasons is just as bad as torturing for no reason at all.) The entry can add his other crimes and mention that his bad qualities were played up to be even worse in the dub, but that's it.
edited 8th Apr '14 8:35:05 PM by ANewMan
to Euron, at least for now. I can easily imagine we'll be revisiting him one day. But for now, all his atrocious deeds are Offstage Villainy.
I was just wondering if he'd quite done enough to cross the line, yet. Heck, in another series, there'd be no question of it. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
"In distress", my ass.
Jumping back over the last few days, touching on the highlights with which I'm familiar:
Yes to the Prince of Persia film entry and to the rewrite for Gus from Peter Is the Wolf (and for the latter 50 lashes with a wet noodle for the Nattery stuff tacked on at the end of the existing writeup 
).
As for Winter Soldier, I agree that the film doesn't really have any CMs. The two primary candidates are certainly not sweethearts, but even ignoring the heinousness standard set by Red Skull in The First Avenger (same continuity, yes, but still not the same film) what they do is more Well-Intentioned Extremist territory.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, SLIGHT on Izzy, unless her not killing the girl is more Pragmatic Villainy.
Not sure how Junko got brought back up last page, but the decision for the moment is that she doesn't count on the basis of the first game alone, and we agreed to wait until the second game get's released in the west before picking the matter up again. Not that it makes much of a practical difference since the YMMV for the first game and the series as a whole are the same page. So really it's a "we'll wait six months" verdict.
The anime one on the other hand is a bit more tricky since we never established how much of a difference there was in characterisation, and there wasn't really much of a debate beyond "does she count," "yeah," "okay then, onto the next one." Since I don't plan on watching it subtitled (not that I'm a hater of subs, I just prefer dubs unless they're god awful) despite the entire series being free to watch here in Oz I don't really have a desire to revisit that debate any time soon. At least not until we conclusively rule on Junko.
From Lie to Me
- Complete Monster: Martin Walker, who waterboarded a girl multiple times, brought her back via CPR, and almost succeeded in burying her alive out in the woods. Plus giving the same treatment to Cal, who is former British intelligence..
- You find out at the end of the show that he succeeded with five girls before her.
- Nah, that had been heavily implied throughout the episode. What's really revealed at the end is when he was a kid, he watched his older sister drown in the pool in their backyard, and he didn't try to save her because he "wanted her bike."
- Andrew Jenkins is one of these as well - a serial rapist who blinded his victims with acid, so they couldn't identify them and (at least, it's implied) because that way, his face would be burned into their memories forever.
- And his copycat killer, who married one of the victims just to hear more about how she was tortured.
- When Cal shuts these two down, it really is CMOA for him.
- You find out at the end of the show that he succeeded with five girls before her.
full of natters
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmmm...For TV!Ramsay it seems like his only onscreen act is the torture of Theon? As bad as it is, if that's all he does, it's just one person...
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
ACW, perhaps we can stop bringing up voted-on examples continuously. Or commenting on things without doing any research. Ramsay tortures him hideously, castrates him, and flayed every Ironborn with him, and murdered his own men just to keep a mind game going.
edited 9th Apr '14 5:35:09 AM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm going just by what was in the description (missed him killing his own men though 
).
I'm just saying, if you see that. fro, am example that was pretty unanimous, it doesn't hurt to check it out. I can rewrite Ramsay, but otherwise, he:
Pretends to be Theon's ally sent by his sister and frees him. When Ramsay's men catch Theon and try to rape him, Ramsay kills them with arrows./..before leading Theon back to the Dreadfort and torturing him personally. And very horribly. He eventually gives him two women who arouse Theon, before Ramsay arrives and has Theon castrated- sending Theon's father the results in a box. He also flays the 20 Ironborn alive who were with Theon.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Is the flaying onscreen (at least a Gory Discretion Shot)?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I believe he sent the results to the Iron Islands.
We see him flay Thon's finger as well
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well then, I take back what I said. And I missed the part about him killing his men. 
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
As hideous as the torture of Theon may be, and it being only For the Evulz, I was reminded of the discussion we had regarding the ISP, who while heinous only focuses on Spooky…
edited 9th Apr '14 6:07:49 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
She was about to, but the father offered himself instead, and while she ultimately does kill him instead, for a good while it does look like she's gonna kill the girl.