During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Sayuri and Alex
@43: If that comment is about Vittoria/the Wanderer from DC, I've absolutely never thought she should have been listed and I wouldn't at all mind another discussion there too.
Goku Black
Ah right Vittoria ....
Is Vittoria even that heinous. Compared to like most other examples on Monster.Batman
Btw anyone for folk of the air. Balekin is an abusive dick and Thats it....
He enchAnted a human servant to torture his brother cardan for fun once....
Do you want me to expand. I'm fine either way. Nothing else to report. I said it was short.
Edited by miraculous on Dec 4th 2020 at 10:09:36 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Scraggle: Interesting. I was reminded of Junior from Secret Six.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Junior's crimes don't really have any thing to do with dear dad though. She did that on her own.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I don't even think it's a matter of heinousness—if we could get up someone as no name as Benedict Asp, she probably clears. What is a major issue is that the onscreen impetus for her villainy is depicted so fucking brutally—she goes from "scared, normal girl and would-be rape victim dumped into a pit of thousands and thousands of venomous spiders" to "psychotic murdering supervillain" like that and I think the obvious implication is that she completely snapped from her abuse. It's comic book insanity, but it's being depicted in a markedly different way than, say, Joker's is.
The only argument you could really make to keep her is that her actual origin issue is being touchy about how much it affected her ("Maybe her mind snapped, maybe she didn't know what she was doing. But maybe she did. And maybe she liked it.") but then you have to consider the last we see of her before she turns into Wanderer is this
◊.
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 4th 2020 at 11:22:33 AM
Cut Sayuri and Alex.
Cut Vittoria, I made this argument back when and I hold to it.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Vitoria.
Woagh
Cut Vittoria.
How the FUCK did she even get nominated in the first place?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 4th 2020 at 10:31:46 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Goku Black
Cut Vittoria.
Was never totally okay with her being up either because of that fe....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Original effortpost for Vittoria is here, if you are curious.
Self-Declared King of Everything
Cut Vittoria.
I think the idea behind her being nominated may be that other characters have survived worse with their minds intact? But I don't think that was how it was framed in-story.
Found another potential candidate; EP tonight, maybe.
Edited by Critica7 on Dec 4th 2020 at 10:35:40 AM
Check out my current fanfiction project.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut Vittoria.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
And that's two (Or three) cuts today. This year is just full of cuts isn't it? Anyways, cut Vittoria.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Vittoria.
Like I said, 2020.
My own cut is one of the famed "last minute redeeming qualities" things...Keris Veturia of Ember In the Ashes is as horrific as her entry sounds, but the final book, after all her atrocities, it's revealed she loved and still loves her mother Karinna who was tortured to death in front of her as a child. Her final fate is being forced to feel the agony she's caused others until her soul is rebooted into the innocent child she used to be and sent on her way with her mother to the afterlife.
Clear cut.
Chop chop goes Keris, sadly.
Speaking of Batman I have a mild touch-up to Asp for some factual accuracy:
- Knightquest Appearances : Benedict Asp, born Benjamin Asplin, is the brother of the good-hearted psychic Dr. Shondra Kinsolving (formerly Sandra Asplin) and a murderous egomaniac who forces his sister's loyalty by violently torturing one of her patients on life-support in front of her, then later on cheerfully unplugging the man out of nothing but spite. Asp builds a helmet that helps him augment and direct her sister's Psychic Powers while keeping Shondra as his abused slave, forcing her to murder their own elderly adoptive mother just as he had their abusive adoptive father killed when he and Shondra were children. Asp intends to use Shondra as a psychic assassin, bribing billions of dollars out of the government by threatening to have the President and several heads of state assassinated, and reaches the climax of his villainy by forcing Shondra to wipe out an entire village, not even sparing the children.
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 4th 2020 at 11:50:48 AM
Sayuri and Alex, as well as Vittoria
The 2019-2020 period is truly the year of the cuts due to sudden redeeming qualities(through not all of that is bad, I remember that Morgana and Ardyn were well developed and well received, especially since they became M Bs, and it seems Vittoria didn't deserve a CM label in the first place) and near-misses regarding potential C Ms that miss the mark(again, not all bad, I remember Netflix!Hordak being well executed in that regard).
That said, you haven't seen anything yet. Tomorrow, when I return from my EP hiatus, I will be potentially dropping, what will be potentially one of the biggest near-miss of 2019-2020 period.
The reason that it's a near miss is because this character isn't up as a CM, but looking at who they were, you'd honestly expect them to be a CM once their storyline is resolved. And the reason that it is one of our bigger near-misses is not because how well known this work is, but how well known the individual and their actions are that you'd expect their incarnations to be universally pure evil(to date this is perhaps the only work of fiction where this character is presented in a not-pure evil way and not because of a jacked up HS)
Now, I will consider it to be closer to Morgana and Ardyn narrative(through the character dosen't get redeemed in my eyes, nor is it framed as such, and it's more of having redeeming qualities and enough of a heel realization to realize the world is better off without them) and writing wise than Bryce or Xehanort and I will say that they genuinely did well with this storyline reactions wise as absurd as the premise may be. However the identity of character x, as I will call him, might create a LOT of concern given how this character is usually presented. Again, please do not pm me about this character.
And in addition, if anyone wishes to get a shower after reading about who character X is tomorrow or get drunk on beer or coffee, do it, feel free, I recognize some people may believe this plotline is objectively offensive on the conceptual level.
I do have a potential CM from the same universe for tomorrow through and I hope they can be a good compensation for the non-CM if they get approved due to some similar characterization and beliefs(big issue is a shitton of negating heinousness)
Edited by xie323 on Dec 4th 2020 at 10:59:00 AM
Voting to cut the Gun×Clover duo.
As for Vitoria, almost getting raped and tgeb bitten by 300 venomus spiders as eight year old (Is it just me or does that sound like an edgy fanfic?)sounds horrible. So yeah, I think it’s very believable that she just snapped and that her moral agency is impaired. So I vote for cutting her, too.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut the Commandant. Also, good lord, what a LONG entry:
- Complete Monster: Commandant Keris Veturia of Blackcliff military academy is infamous for her cruelty and inhumanity. Using a cold-blooded exterior to mask her raging insanity, the Commandant delights in committing torture and murder for the flimsiest of reasons. Introduced whipping a boy to death for deserting, a not-uncommon situation, she keeps a wall of her office completely covered with dozens of wanted posters from those she's captured and had killed, a grim "paper cemetery" that serves as a trophies of the lives she's taken. The Commandant treats her slaves horribly, disfiguring them within the first few weeks of service, torturing them or their loved ones for the slightest mistakes, and has a track record of driving them to suicide with her abuse. After the Commandant caught one member of the resistance, she killed everyone the woman loved, savaged her face, forced her to swallow hot coals, then enslaved her as her cook. When Cook tried to assassinate her with poisoned food, the Commandant responded by driving a hot poker through the eye of a five-year-old slave that Cook saw as a surrogate daughter. [[BigBadDuumvirate Conspiring with the Nightbringer, the Commandant places a psychopathic rapist on the throne as her puppet, whom she plans on killing and usurping, manipulates the local Scholar resistance into killing the old emperor, then uses their rebellion as an excuse to commit genocide on the Scholars. The only moment of compassion she's ever admitted to was when Elias was born, and a fleeting moment of maternal instinct caused her to abandon him with a tribal woman instead of killing him as she planned. She almost immediately regretted this and turned around to murder him, only to find the tribe was already gone. She's regretted that single moment of compassion ever since, and has worked to undo her mistake by repeatedly trying to kill her son in the present day. The Commandant is defined as someone who's forged herself into a monster by tirelessly working to weed out any goodness within her in pursuit of absolute power.
Goku Black
Sure cut Keris
Sounds a bit weird off a fate for the Big Bad you had do atrocity after atrocity over multiple books but okay.....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut Vittoria and Keris. Now that’s what I call a bullshit redeeming quality . . . .
Cut both (latter sounds like that comic book candidate who got gang raped and stung to hell by spiders which may or may not have jacked up her agency but is still somehow listed that I wouldn't mind seeing go). Go for your cut Lighty.
Edit: Go for yours too mir.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 4th 2020 at 1:04:18 PM