During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Colonel Nash. I actually remember watching that movie.
Happy Birthday ACW 
Yes to Nash. Happy birthday, ACW!
Speaking of Western Terrorists, new EP:
What is the Work?
The 2nd is a 2020 action film starring Ryan Phillippe as Vic Davis, an ex-Green Beret who is picking up his son Sean from boarding school for the Christmas holidays. Sean has a crush on a girl named Olivia, whose father is a high-ranking judge. In true "Die Hard" on an X-fashion, father and son wind up bumbling into a terrorist plot to kidnap the girl.
Who is the Candidate and What Does He Do?
"The Driver" (Casper Van Dien) is an ex-military man hired by CIA Director Phillips to kidnap Olivia and force her father into ruling in favor of tighter gun control restrictions after Phillips' daughter was killed in a mass shooting.
The Driver, posing as a relief chauffeur for Olivia, is introduced arriving at Sean's boarding school. When the gate guard doesn't recognize him, The Driver kills him, then waits until the rest of the campus security shows up before slaughtering them as well, then opens the door for the rest of his team to enter. He sends them to capture the girl and kill anyone else inside. Vic and Sean interfere with the initial attempts to kidnap Olivia and an extended Darkened Building Shootout ensues.
Sean and Olivia bump into their acquaintance Neal and he appears to help them get out of the building, but it turns out he's working for The Driver. The Driver says "Three can keep a secret if Two of them are dead", then savagely beats Neal to death with his cane before taking Sean and Olivia hostage and leaving to rendezvous with Phillips. Vic kills the rest of The Driver's team (minus one woman) and pursues them. The Driver then leads the effort by Phillips' men to stop Vic from rescuing Sean and Olivia and fights Vic, only being defeated when a burst gas pipe explodes. However it turns out that The Driver survived his injuries and makes his last appearance at Phillips' house. The Driver mentions that their benefactor is displeased at how things went (Vic managed to rescue Olivia and Sean), repeats the adage about keeping secrets, kills Phillips, and leaves.
Mitigating Circumstances?
He's wooden. Now that could work in his favor or against him, as he seems like the cold-blooded Psycho for Hire type. His employer has good intentions and even his Mooks do, since one of them says "[they're] the good guys" to Vic while fighting him. Not The Driver though, he seems to be in it for killing given the panache he puts into his slaughter of the campus security.
Heinousness?
He's The Heavy, with seven kills. Phillips, who has good intentions, is mostly behind the scenes until the climax and talking with Olivia's father while both Phillips and The Driver have an unseen benefactor, but this person is never seen or heard so he might as well not be a character.
Verdict?
Unsure.
And a Happy Birthday to our curator, ACW!
Edited by k410ren on Dec 31st 2022 at 10:08:40 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Goku Black
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Driver. Not feeling it. Kinda feels I dunno standard for an action film like this. Their's no ommph to push him over.
Happy Birthday ACW![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Ys to the Creation and Nash.
No to the Driver.
Cut the Reverend.
Happy birthday ACW!
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
After reading the EP I’ll leaning towards a for The Driver, but first I would like to ask some questions.
So The Driver only killed seven people personally, but he did send his men into the boarding school with clear instruction to kill everyone beside the target. Is that correct? Also how many people were at the school during the attack and how old were they?
They were conducting the kidnapping during the packing up period to take advantage of people going home and were likely not picky about who got in their way given that most of them immediately attack Vic and Sean once they’re seen. It just so happened that Olivia took enough time and was one of the last to leave. Most of the people there were teenagers.
Edited by k410ren on Nov 29th 2020 at 10:16:11 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
No to the Driver.
Self-Declared King of Everything
@Stellarvore Even if years had agency and weren’t real life examples, they have redeeming qualities. Even 2020. Even 2008. And even the years of the Great Depression.
Cut the reverend.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
Critica... I think he meant it as a joke-post that didn't warrant a response to derail.
Cut the Reverend, yes to Nash, no to the driver.
Okay, changing my vote for The Driver from to abstain.
If he had attacked the school when all the students and teachers were still around, it would've been an easy thumbs up. One of the rare occurrences were Pragmatic Villainy works against a candidate. But since the movie ends with a Sequel Hook, there's still a chance he (or his mysterious employer) can qualify in a future movie.
Incidentally, there's a Malaysian water filter installation company also called Nash 
spelling differs by a word, though
Happy B-day ACW!
Ultimate Moral Compass
Nash
Rev and Driver
Happy Birthday ACW!
But also an unfortunate RIP to David Prowse, Darth Vader himself.
"No running in the halls!"
Professor Gigachad
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I have a question. On Actors Who Played And Fought C Ms,I know we have limited to Live Action roles only. But does that include motion capture and voice work for Live Acton stuff?
Also The Lion King (2019) is listed on there for Chiwetel Ejiofor (played) and James Earl Jones (opposed). Does that count as Live Action? (Wait I just noticed that it lists the original 1994 as well for Jones. Which definitely isn't Live Action)
Edited by Bullman on Nov 29th 2020 at 10:22:13 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Voice work for live-action...If it's something like James Earl Jones voicing Darth, I'm okay with it (so we can add him, since he voiced Darth who fought Palpatine and played CM Thulsa). Motion capture...that's more iffy.
Edited by ACW on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:37:53 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Creation; no to the Driver; cut the Reverend.
The Lion King (2019) isn’t live-action. It’s animated. But then again, I don’t think that page should be limited to live-action.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If we included voice acting, that list would be MASSIVE.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Okay for instance would we count Ian McKellen voicing The Great Intelligence on Doctor Who as Live Action? I mean it's live action, but unlike Richard E. Grant he never appears physically on screen as the character, just doing the voice.
Should I remove The Lion King (2019) references on the page?
Edited by Bullman on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:05:49 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Uh... that list's pretty informal. I don't see why it should be restricted to voice acting vs. playing someone in a live action role but I don't think we should be stressing to make sure it's 100% accurate either.
I'd like to raise two points over Dissidia Final Fantasy.
First, Shinryu's qualification has two rather large snags to it. First, everything it does is Offstage Villainy. Shinryu was never seen in person until Dissidia NT, in the original Dissidia it only has a few lines of dialogue, and it's implied Shinryu wrote Report #13. Everything else we're told about Shinryu comes from other characters or the Reports. Given that it does appear in NT and is using the same modus operandi there, and NT is an in-canon sequel to the original Dissidia, that might sidestep the offscreen problem, but I don't feel that way.
Second, the entry as written has many errors that disqualify Shinryu:
- Shinryu was not "entrusted to watch over [the world]" and participated in a plan to destroy it, it watches over the cycles but has no connection to World B otherwise. Shinryu's museum profile even states "Shinryu visited this world that wavers within the interdimensional Rift on a whim as just another place of rest."
- In the Reports it is clear Cid knows that he will be giving up his body by the conditions of their pact. And he did not give up his soul to Shinryu, just the opposite, in giving up his body he existed as only a soul.
- Shinryu did not manipulate the cycles to go on forever, not in any way that we're told. In fact it is part of the rules that Shinryu and Cid only observe, they do not interfere, and Cid doing so is why Shinryu punished him by trapping him in a nightmare world. In the Report it apparently wrote Shinryu says to the three (Cid, Cosmos, Chaos) that it thinks they shouldn't try to go home and just let the cycles continue, but also says that if they want to take that risk, it's their choice.
- The warriors Shinryu doesn't revive don't "rot in the Void for eternity", because most of them are back in Dissidia NT, implying that at some point they returned to their own worlds.
tl;dr - everything Shinryu does it does off-screen, and the Complete Monster profile has several errors that negate most of the evil deeds attributed to him in some way. At worst Shinryu is taking advantage of the people participating in the cycle, but they wanted the deal and knew fully what it would entail, and the only thing it lied to them about was being able to revive the dead when it was actually saving them from near-death to absorb their power and then returned them to the world. And it did trap Cid in a nightmare world, but did so as a punishment for Cid breaking the rules of their pact.
Shinryu aside, I don't believe Kefka and the Emperor were ever formerly EP'd? Looking back during the original clean-up I saw some casual discussion but no formal E Ps. The issues I saw raised were "the things they did weren't THAT" bad, and "they don't stack up to Shinryu". But I'd say the things they do ARE that bad, since they not only manipulate and brainwash other warriors but intend for their allies to die (the Emperor actively wants it, Kefka actively does it). If they'd both qualify or not, I'm not sure, but I think it's worth E Ping them both and seeing if people think they meet the heinous standard.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Nov 29th 2020 at 9:24:42 AM
If so, cut Shinryu.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The ONLY sticking issue with Kefka is his being a Psycho Prototype, but it was mentioned in the thread I think that it's not disqualifying. As for heinousness...doesn't Kefka, like, try to destroy the world (even succeeding?)??
I can't speak to the Emperor or the Dissidia dude.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Nash
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."