During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I thought the consensus was that the fanfic just needed a substantial plot to count, not that it needs to match the original work's tone.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 28th 2020 at 4:52:09 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Yeah we cut the "needs to be consistent with the originals tone" rule
Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 28th 2020 at 1:48:38 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
That was not how I remembered that discussion ending or where thread consensus was at all but if it passes it passes I suppose
Edited by WaryHoglet on Jun 28th 2020 at 4:51:58 AM
Lizzid people!
It was made to as long as it had a substantial plot, it was kosher basically no TP, etc.
Edited by AustinDR on Jun 28th 2020 at 5:01:16 AM
Here's where the thread's consensus came from, in which everyone seems to agree with Lightysnake's idea: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15227044540A16043600&page=7#comment-163
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 28th 2020 at 5:01:34 AM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Another unapproved Complete Monster pothole I found, this time on Shocking Moments regarding Shinji Matou from from Fate/stay night. I cut the pothole and linked to the thread. Anybody who's familiar with the series can do an EP if they want.
- Heaven's Feel is more or less a solid, unbroken string of these. First, you have Sakura, previously an extremely minor character, being revealed to have a heartbreaking background, and Shinji being revealed to be an absolute monster rather than just Shirou's one-man Goldfish Poop Gang. Then you have Shirou losing his arm and getting Archer's grafted on in its place. Then, you have him curb-stomping fucking Heracles using the arm. Then, because Heaven's Feel is still not done knocking you out of your chair, you have the ending, where Shirou either projects a Wave-Motion Gun of his own accord, at the cost of his own life or beats the living shit out of Kirei with his bare hands, with Illya barely managing to save his soul in a jar at the cost of her own life.
Hi I'm a fan of the Fate series; no Shinji definitely does not count. He's an extremely annoying spoiled bully who sexually abuses Sakura, but he doesn't get up to anything more heinous than that when in the same universe you have Zoken Matou regularly murdering children and family members by having them be eaten alive by worms, Gilgamesh wanting to wipe out most of the planet's population, and Kirei Kotomine literally blowing up orphanages out of spite. He's a Jerkass Hate Sink, nothing more.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Jun 28th 2020 at 5:38:19 AM
No one else wants to give his vote regarding the Great Guidance?
No to Great Guidance. If it is a dream than he can't count at all.
Hey we cut Joker from Harley Quinn (2019) right?
Carrot Clone
Yep
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Great Guidance.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mosi and Meles.
Me Listening to You RN
So I made a page for Tyler, the Creator, and a CM from one of his songs is still on OFWGKTA. can someone please move it to the appropriate page?
So long as there's an actual page, go for it.
Speaking off, Modern Combat has its own page now, so I guess one of us best move its two entries to its YMMV page. And link it on the Video Game page.
Edited by Beast on Jun 28th 2020 at 9:25:40 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Is there a good way to rewrite the introductory sentences in these Dungeons and Dragons examples? The current ones don't read well and are rather a mouthful with the full listing of the books they were in and the author. I'd honestly argue those parts aren't really vital and could probably be cut, especially since no other entries on the page are really formatted that way.
- Kymil Nimesin, from the Songs & Swords series and Evermeet: Island of Elves, both by Elaine Cunningham, is a Sun Elf who utterly despises Moon Elves and views the reign of the Moon Elf Moonflower dynasty as the worst atrocity to ever befall Elvenkind. Kymil organizes a conspiracy and begins to have the Moonflower family murdered one by one, including the goodhearted King Zaor and many of his children. Manipulating the half-elf daughter of one victim, Kymil plans to use her abilities to destroy the remaining Moonflower dynasty, even murdering the assassin who killed Zaor to keep the secret. After his initial defeat, Kymil sells out to the Gods who are elvenkind's worst enemies, including Lolth herself. Kymil assists in an attack on the elven kingdom of Evermeet where he even allows the monstrous Elf-Eater to be summoned, caring nothing for the genocide of his own people as long as he can fulfill his megalomaniac fury.
- Rivalen Tanthul, from The Twilight War trilogy and Godborn, both by Paul S. Kemp, is one of the 12 Princes of Shade, the remnant of the empire of Netheril, and the most powerful of his brothers. Rivalen is the Nightseer, High Priest, of the Dark Goddess Shar, and murdered his own mother to instill his family with the loss needed to turn them to Shar's worship. Rivalen mentally tortures his younger brother Brennus with the vision of the murder and mocks his father, High Prince Telamont, about loving Rivalen too much to stop his mad plans. In the vision, Rivalen's dying mother simply asked Rivalen to hold her hand so she wouldn't be alone, to which Rivalen calmly denied her request, in order to savor her suffering. Rivalen engineers massive casualties and Shade's takeover of the lands of Sembia, savoring the bitterness and pain of those he betrays. A century after Sembia's takeover, Rivalen attempts to finish Shar's manifestation, revealing his ultimate goal: to die and take all that exists in Toril with him. Defined by his cruel nihilism and utter lack of regard for any living being, Rivalen sought deaths on scales that not even Gods such as Cyric would attempt.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jun 28th 2020 at 7:26:59 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The wifi here sucks
I don't see the problem with those
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Maki, Milverton, Deathstroke, Mosi and Meles
Kamdor, Vexacus, Whitehead and Guidance
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Jun 28th 2020 at 7:41:31 AM
@ Lore, Yeah, with MB I always do "Work title, sub, author(s), etc.": [Entry]... otherwise it's clunky and weirdly starts jamming in details about publication when the rest of the entry talks about crimes committed. I'd happily see that get pulled.
One other guy I wanna get up. Not entirely sure on him, but he deserves a post—a Batman rogue originating from Legends of the Dark Knight and Batman: Shadow of the Bat. We have Benedict Asp.
Who is Benedict Asp? What has he done?
Benedict Asp, born Benjamin Asplin, used to be an orphan kid who found out his sister Sandra was psychic as a kid. Benjamin proceeded to start manipulating his sister to use these powers for "their" (his) own gain, convincing her to psychically kill their abusive father. Benedict and Sandra were forcibly separated after this incident, with Sandra changing her named to Shondra in this period, but Benjamin—in turn, now Benedict—continued to seek her out as an adult for nefarious purposes.
As a full-grown adult, Benedict Asp has reached his cream of the crop in terms of dickery. Benedict Asp forces Shondra's loyalty by violently torturing one of her terminally-ill patients on life support in front of her eyes. As soon as he's got Shondra's loyalty, Benedict unplugs the guy out of sheer spite. Benedict forces Shondra to become his slave, putting her through relentless psychological torture and occasionally even physical abuse. As a test run, using a helmet that helps Benedict channel her psychic power, Benedict has Shondra psychically murder an entire village full of innocents. Not even the children are spared, as Benedict sees as he walks through the slaughtered village with nothing short of disgusting glee.
Benedict continues to savagely abuse his sister and her powers despite the toll it takes on her. When their elderly adoptive mother tries to speak up about her son's actions, Benedict forces Shondra murder the innocent woman, completing his trip into becoming a full Self-Made Orphan, while trying to assassinate a rich man who's befriended Shondra who in actuality is merely the alias of Bruce Wayne. Benedict even threatens to murder the President himself and several heads of state as part of a blackmail scheme. Benedict ends up wounded by Bruce, and in Shondra's clumsy attempt to heal him, accidentally screws up the process and kills him.
Any mitigating factors?
Benedict has no redeeming qualities—he's a slimy creep who abuses his sister in horrible, awful ways, gleefully exploiting her past as The Unfavorite to their abusive father while totally any tragedy related to that backstory himself—but what I'm more concerned about is the heinous standard. Benedict Asp isn't a supervillain—he's not even in the same league as James Gordon Jr.—and his only resource to exploit is his psychic sister, but Legends of the Dark Knight particularly was a long run with a lot of really awful villains, many of whom weren't exactly supervillains either.
Where I think Benedict stands out is the awful stuff he's got going on with his sister. Benedict enslaves her, gaslights her, tortures her both physically and psychologically for days, and forces her to murder her own parents and dozens of innocent people. Bruce displays particular disgust and shock to Benedict's annihilation of an entire English village, with special emphasis placed on Would Hurt a Child in that specific scene, so I think Benedict is just cutting over for the greater Batman standard.
Conclusion?
I'd say weak keeper, but I leave it to the thread.
Edited by Scraggle on Jun 28th 2020 at 12:07:34 PM
I agree, yes to Benedict.
to Benedict Asp/Benjamin Asplin.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 12:16:36 PM
to Benedict Ass
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I took care of Modern Combat and Tyler.
Mosi; Meles; Benedict (low quantity, but HIGH quality with high ENOUGH quantity).
Okay for Meles...on-screen bloody torture of a character isn't significantly changing the tone/grimdarking of a fanfic of a PG-rated childrens movie? I'm having a pretty hard time buying that so![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
based on what we decided a few weeks ago of fanfic characters needing to adhere to the same general tone of the original work
Edited by WaryHoglet on Jun 28th 2020 at 4:41:48 AM