During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
An Eldritch Troper
Cut the entry and leave a reminder telling anyone who gets there not to write up an entry until we write it up and post it there.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Talk to Lighty...he’s reserved that.
Edited by Draxterrus on Feb 28th 2020 at 11:37:21 PM
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I feel like he's gonna be one of Those "so bad that people who saw the movie keep putting him down as this before the discussion date" guys.
BTW has anyone seen the movie? I'd be interested in hearing about it on PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Self-Declared King of Everything
I'm thinking about potential keepers from the Riordanverse again. Like I've said before, the heinous standard is pretty high, but I think there might be a couple of keepers in there somewhere.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
An Eldritch Troper
Care to read the novels yourself or tell us exactly who you have in mind?
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
TBH, having read through it, I don't think anyone else makes it. The standard is jacked. Maybe Surt, but thus far....nobody else manages. Apophis comes closest, but his excuse is too valid (he's in literal agony from existence)
I saw Invisible Man earlier, btw. Discussion will be in two weeks. So glad I reserved it.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 28th 2020 at 7:42:29 AM
I remember Kronos getting an EP but was deemed a non-keeper for not being heinous enough (which is surprising since he was the Big Bad of the first book series) If Surt does come closest to qualifying, I would love to see him get an effortpost.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 28th 2020 at 5:51:51 AM
Here's Sawyer's writeup and Veronica Harrington's while I am at it since I forgot to write her up when she got approved.
- Total Drama fanfiction Lost and Found: Sawyer is the abusive father of Gwen. Having abandoned Gwen when she was three, he takes her in after her mother and brother are seemingly killed in a house fire. Where he regularly abuses her. Physically beating her up and even going as far as cutting her, leaving cuts on various parts of her body. Threatening to kill Trent if he sees her with him and almost making good on that promise when he has men beat Trent to near death. It is revealed that Sawyer was the one who burned down Gwen's house, kidnapped her mother and brother, faked their deaths and held them captive to use as hostages to keep Gwen in his clutches, only keeping her around so he can make money off her. When a maid stands up for Gwen, Sawyer unhesitatingly kills her. Coming into conflict with Trent, Sawyer threatens to "spill" Gwen's brains if he makes a move. While in the middle of a Villainous Breakdown, he tries to shoot Gwen's mother, stabs a Heel–Face Turn Hilary and uses Trent as a Human Shield, taunting Gwen about not having it in her to hurt her boyfriend.
- The Haves And The Have Not:Veronica Harrington is the matarich of the Harrington family. She regularly antagonizes her son, Jeffery for being gay. Cutting him off financially, blackmailing him into dating (and later impregnate) Melissa by threatening to have him incriminated for Wyatt's hit and run crime. Releasing Quincy from jail, she keeps him under her thumb by threatening to have his family killed. Ordering Quincy to lay a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown on Jeffery. Discovering that her husband has been having an affair, she lights his mansion on fire while he is asleep in an attempt kill him. When Wyatt goes to jail, Veronica arranges for an inmate to brutally rape him. A true narcissist, Veronica was obsessed with making people live the life she wants them to live and won't hesitate to harm anyone who doesn't, including her own family.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
ken
Huh we actually missed a buffy candidate after all these years. What do you know.
I think that's it barring the expanded universes novels.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 28th 2020 at 9:50:20 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You talking about Kronos from Persy Jackson?
yes I was
Can Kronos from Percy Jackson movies count i wonder?
Ken
as the movies were only the first two books I'm guessing the heinous standard is lower. If Kronos hasn't been nominated yet - that's an if because it might have happened already - I'd be game to hear you out.
Internet is now working, so EP for Grag Ardent will be up shortly.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Ramos I STRONGLY support keeping. Dude had over 50 kills, plus the whole bleach thing. He stays, IMHO.
- Mullens also had a unique method, plus the whole forcing victims to call their families thing.
- Foyet may have had a relatively low body count ("only" 36), but made up for it in personal crimes.
- Roycewood: Granted, the kids were sedated, but her UTTER abuse is unique (and she's pants-shittingly creepy).
- Boyd: I think he just makes it, though I honestly wouldn't shed a tear if he goes.
- As for Cy: Yeah, I do agree the tapes were meant to imply more...the only thing is, with such a whacked standard, I'm just not sure that's enough. I won't shed a tear if he stays though.
- G: Nah, Cally DEFINITELY stays. I assume you're looking at the show's Wiki? That actually underestimates his crimes. I saw the ep, and besides the unique trying to start a race war, his final means of trying to start it is to slaughter a Native American school, which IIRC was a dozen plus kids. He stays EASILY, and I will strongly argue against cutting him. Hell, even Preston cared "only" about getting reelected.
I'll let discussion stay on and request the cuts tomorrow morning. And as for Aubrey Plaza's character, if anyone's curious it's Cat Adams who, unless she changed dramatically in her final appearance this past season, doesn't count for a variety of reasons.
Draxterrus: Good point. I made the request.
Ken. Interestingly, that's another reason I support keeping Roycewood: The utter erasure of the victims' identities.
And since Lighty's open to re-litigating: Thing with Floyd is, as bad and as manipulative as he is, he was mainly a post-mortem cannibal. The feeding parts to other people was bad, but we've also got this guy
, who's probably too crazy to count.
Edited by ACW on Feb 29th 2020 at 3:48:42 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
RIP Toriyama
A 'Yes' to Ken, great job on a new Buffy baddie!
I'll say to Keep Ramos, but to Cut the other 4 suggested Cuts from Criminal Minds.
So, as sad as I am to say, I have a likely cut to propose, of a villain I myself approved. Many of us remember good old Baron Karza, handily one of my favorite and most memorable Complete Monster proposals...alongside his original Marvel incarnation, I also proposed Karza's iteration from Image Comics, whose entry can be seen here:
- Image Comics series: Baron Karza is an order-obsessed sociopath who stacks up well to his original counterpart's evil. Having risen to power by murdering the evil Emperor, Karza assumed control of his forces and began a campaign of death and experimentation across the Microverse, subjecting even children to his grotesque vivisections and other crimes against nature that take place in his Biovault. Always willing to murder his lieutenants should they fail him, Karza even coldly orders his own daughter's decapitation when she betrays him, and has no issue turning on leaving his partners to die once he's gotten his use out of them. Indulging in slave auctions of the rarest species in the galaxy—who he often makes rarer by wiping out most of their races himself—Karza leads an assault on Earth that claims millions of lives, as he plans to wipe out every last human with an IQ higher than 80 then turn the rest into slaves and experimental stock. Even Karza's Freudian Excuse is utterly dismantled, as it is revealed that he himself kickstarted his own tragic past with time travel simply to ensure his own creation.
Now, in said comics? This Karza counts just handily. Everything still holds up, and at the time of my reading his comics, Karza absolutely counted.
Unfortunately, as I only very recently learned, there was a trilogy of tie-in novels released by Image Comics, written by one Steve Lyons. In said novels, Karza's mindset is delved into considerably deeper, and though there's nothing absolutely redeeming about him, Karza is shown to be more complex than the comics themselves would portray.
In these novels, we see a reality where Karza doesn't rule the Microverse, and he's still absolutely a ruthless douche, but he's also portrayed as considerably more well-intentioned, actually being horrified to an extent by his dictator counterpart...as for said "true" Karza, the dictator madman? He gets some POV chapters, which portray him as actually, genuinely buying into his delusional belief that he's "bringing order" to the Microverse, and he actually admits that he's always been hesitant on hurting his daughter, and is still obviously affected by her betrayal of him.
Now, despite proclaiming his Well-Intentioned Extremist goals, Karza is an absolutely horrible lunatic, and his ideal "Utopia" is horrible for anyone he doesn't seem worthy...but in the same instance, Karza's final goal actually involves changing the timestream to one where he does indeed rule, but it's a "perfect order" where, ideally, both his daughter and his long-dead father are alive and at his side.
Karza does facilitate his own father's murder by tampering with time—just so he can ensure his own creation, as Karza fully embraces that his father's death made him a better, stronger person—but he shows visible discomfort when he travels back in time and allows his dad to be killed, and he is reassuring himself all the while that he'll inevitably, no matter how many times he has to Stable Time Loop his way through atrocity after atrocity, bring about a perfect empire that is better for all, with Alt!Karza's inner monologues showing that he actually is capable of caring for people and wants to bring about his utopia so as to save some from the horrors of war.
Karza is an absolute sadist, maniac, and monstrous person...he experiments on thousands, he commits genocide, he is willing to doom his own family to ensure his victory, but, for better or worse, this novel trilogy really takes a deep dive into Karza's psyche, and it comes out portraying him as an ultimately pitiable, almost tragic character; spending an eternity creating countless realities, perpetrating all manner of war crimes and horrors against trillions, putting himself through his horrible childhood over and over again in the blind hope that some day, some how, he'll create a reality where peace reigns, he didn't drive his daughter away, and, if at all possible, his father can see the man he has become.
Now, true, one could write off these novels as merely side material, not absolutely canon given how a great chunk of them is about alternate realities and different versions of Karza, so his iteration in the comic could I guess be said to just be one who is irredeemable. But I unfortunately don't think it should work that way, as these novels lean very heavily into the events of the comics, and the slightly ambiguous ending of the comic is expanded on much more in the novels, where it's revealed that Karza is trapped in a personal hell of repeating his life countless times, with slight variations on them here and there until he can finally find a reality where everything is as he sees fit.
So, final saying after all this blabbering? I think the Image Comics version of Karza should probably be cut. The comic itself presents him as a Complete Monster, but the novel makes him a bit too complex and conflicted on certain aspects that the comic portrayed as non-issues for me to say he still counts.
Thoughts?
Edited by Ravok on Feb 29th 2020 at 12:58:00 PM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
An Eldritch Troper
I still want Ramos to go, he’s more of someone who is way worse than a good majority of the others but not as bad as other mass murderers. Also Scraggle said the bleach part doesn’t matter since there are too many ways to pull of unusual deaths like that in the series, and I agree with that.
Cut Karza. Reminds me of the Walking Dead’s Governor.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Phew, for a second I thought this was about the original Karza, that'd be a tragedy worthy of Shakespeare
Are the books written by the same guys as the comics?
the stuff from the Novels wasn't actually the big reason he was cut, he was still up years afterward. The thing is he Apparnelty had redeeming qualities even after that we missed.
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 28th 2020 at 11:13:10 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sigh...yeah, cut Karza.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Cut Karza.
Also has this week had a large number of contentious candidates or is it just me. Feels like we've been barreling from one major discussion to another again and again.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut Comic!Karza, at least we still got the original.
Also, speaking of overlook redeeming qualities, remember Jinx from New Super Lucky’s Tale. At the time of the discussion, I said I had to use a walkthrough since I didn’t have the game myself at the time. However, I recently managed to finally get the game, loved it, and turns out there was one detail that i’ve completely missed. Remember when I said there was no real proof that Jinx cared for his children? Turns out I was dead WRONG. When I finally got to play the game for myself, I’ve discovered that in the first worlds, Jinx disguised himself as a Golum to spy on Lucky, he claims to be a normal Golum, but it’s VERY clear that it’s actually Jinx, and when you talk to him, he will also bring up his children, and speaks quite fondly of them, for example, he is clearly proud of Lady Meowmalade and praises her singing and threatens anyone that dares to insult it. So yeah, turns out he DID loved his children and thus wouldn’t hadn’t counted even if he had been heinous enough. Whoops. Just felt like I should bring that up.
to Ken by the way.
An Eldritch Troper
@miraculous What contentious candidates? I feel the same thing and yearn for the more effort post-heavy times of this thread when we churned at least 3 or 4 new keepers a day.
Also, does anyone agree with cutting Ramos. Lighty and Scrags wouldn’t be pleased if he’s staying.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
to Ken. Cut Comic!Karza.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I say keep Ramos. Lighty said that "His entry is just 'he killed 53 people' which, for a Mexican cartel hitman...doesn't strike me as bad enough." Thing is, I'm not sure there ARE other Mexican cartel hitmen. I mean, sure you've got Cat Adams, Mayford, and Perotta with higher body counts, but I think 50+ victims, forcing them to drink bleach, and some of said victims being children are all enough to keep him.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
I don't like that argument your using. All of us can have our own opinions. We don't need to follow anyone else so if we vote to keep ramos and they vote cut. Theirs nothing wrong with that.
Anyway I'll lend a cut vote to those four but Ramos I think can stay if barely.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 29th 2020 at 1:46:44 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
YMMV.The Invisible Man 2020 had its CM entry added back.
The Protomen enhanced my life.