Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

• So we decided to get rid of the Fallen from the Transformers movie?
• While putting the entries from Marvel Animation on YMMV/{{X-Men‎}}, Cameron Hodge was listed. Count?

edited 21st Nov '13 7:32:09 AM by ACW

Isn't that more one of my cons nullifies the pro?

edited 21st Nov '13 7:33:30 AM by Larkmarn

No?

There's nothing redeeming about the guy having a family, since he never even mentions his wife and shows no love/concern for his kids.

@19336: We've actually already talked about Unalaq and decided he counts. He already has a write-up on Monster.WesternAnimation and YMMV.TheLegendOfKorra.

edited 21st Nov '13 8:10:12 AM by OccasionalExister

I'll say yea for Kane there. He stacks with Kurgan.

Unalaq:

1. Having children and a wife means nothing. He demonstrates he cares nothing for them whatsoever. 2. The fact that Vaatu may have been in control (and this is unconfirmed, Unalaq acts more or less the same there) also means nothing given Unalaq's fused state with Vaatu proceeds to do things Unalaq wanted anyways. He opened Pandoras Box knowing the consequence 3. No body count means nothing. He was trying to destroy Republic City and much more.

Just put in the changes to the When They Cry section. It has everyone that qualifies put into it at this time. Now all we need is someone to take a look, make appropiate adjustments, then we can lock it til the next entry in the series.

Oh, the talk about Unalaq reminds me: The original post had some grammar issues, which I fixed on YMMV.The Legend Of Korra. Those same fixes need to be applied to Monster.Western Animation. Hollering now.

Cartoon Network is done (if you wanna request that change to Katz, fine, just please make sure to add it to the YMMV as well).
As for Mephisto being added to Ghost Rider, cut. He has his own entry for Marvel, not just part of Ghost Rider. Or move that entry to the Ghost Rider YMMV; either one.
As for When They Cry, Nomura's needs explanation of what the Great Hinamizawa Disaster is and how she helped cause it.

edited 21st Nov '13 10:13:00 AM by ACW

I'm gonna attempt a writeup for The Batman's Joker.

Regarding the Transformers Page there's something I brought up for Silas, he may have had an Alas, Poor Villain moment.

Final Episode, he was experimented on by the Decepticons, and had a complex chemical cocktail injected in him, driving him looney because it messed with his brain and caused him immense pain. He also became some robot vampire zombie. He staggered around the ship, turning other characters into some kind of undead thing, and freed Airachnid. He fights her and she spikes him. His dying breath brings him clarity and has him thank her and peacefully leaving thus Dying as Yourself.

We argued if this, while it didn't redeem him, could disqualify him, some said no, as it was his fault he was in the situation in the first place, and the death doesn't really change anything. I personally don't know, anyone's thoughts?

edited 21st Nov '13 1:42:01 PM by DrPsyche

Nomura's crimes amount to being the "manipulator behind the shadows", manipulating the despair of the Big Bad (who suffers from severe PTSD and is likely infected herself L3 grade at this point) to trigger the plot of the Big Bad. The motive for the planned mass murder of 2000+ people: destroy a rival company.

The Great Himimizawa Disaster is in Document 34. It involves murdering Rika Furude (11 years old) via Watanagashi (ritualistic disembowelment) as a operation to trick the Banyu (sort of like special forces) into rounding up the village and gasing them to death via a belief that the village will go completely psycho without Rika around to calm Himimizawa Syndrome down. This "Queen" hypothesis is proven false in Meakashi-hen and Watanagashi-hen due to Shion's actions. The Banyu themselves when notified of the plot in the 8th novel side with the heroes, showing that they were unwitting dupes in previous time lines rather than malevolent villains.

Like Teppei, depicted as being completely unsympathetic and unlike Shion and Takano, does not have a Hate Plague to excuse her actions. Teppei also does not have a Hate Plague to excuse his actions either.

Awaiting panel's judgement before making my edit.

Although we already voted to cut Takano, I'd like to add that she's actually an Anti-Villain who's basically a very dark take on Type 2 and is yet another example of how R7 as a Trolling Creator likes to subvert Complete Monster through his reveals (she was thought as such in Minagoroshi-hen but the 8th novel reveals her past and tragic background story which disqualifies her

edited 21st Nov '13 1:58:24 PM by magnum12

You can add that on Takano's character sheet, but it doesn't go anywhere near a complete monster page. No subversions or tricks on the list. That's a major rule.

anything about the Umineko examples then? Or about the director of Takano's orphanage? Was that onscreen?

I also stand where I used to on Silas. Without redeeming features, I don't buy it. His torturous situation was entirely his own fault and he doesn't have any nicer features after it than he did before it

edited 21st Nov '13 2:34:03 PM by Lightysnake

All umineko examples that need to be placed are fully in place. All examples currently on there are 100% correct and truthful.

The Orphanage of Fear that Takano goes through and many of the atrocities that go on in there are fully on screen, including the acts of the director and his men. The manga version actually manages to be even worse/more horrifying than the VN version.

Of course no tricks and subversions on the page. I was just posting that bit on how R7 loves to subvert CM as interesting information. Its also useful to shut down any false positives that show up and serve as evidence in case said characters ever get brought up for discussion again.

All I need before my final actions on the When They Cry page is our final verdict on Nomura.

edited 21st Nov '13 3:01:31 PM by magnum12

Gotcha. Though we need to rewrite practically everything on the page. The entries as they stand aren't good at all

I have some good news about some unfinished business from a long long time ago. Remember when we were talking about The Punisher, and I said that I remembered Muzzafar Lambert, aka Saracen, as being about as bad as his rogues got, but could not for the life of me recall what he'd tried to do? Someone recently added an Even Evil Has Standards moment to Saracen's entry—apparently he loves his wife, and turns down a chance to cheat on her. I've asked the person who made the edit if they could PM me the details of his crimes anyway, as they'll likely come in useful as a measuring stick if any of Frank's rogues are brought up again.

EDIT: Speaking of The Punisher, on the character sheet, it claims that Cristu Bulat wants to spare some members of a rival gang, and that Tiberiu Bulat cared about his dead wife (noting that had someone desecrated her corpse, the way Nicky Cavella desecrated the corpses of Frank's family he "would have killed thousands"). I don't know if any of this is true, but if it is, Cristu definitely doesn't count, and Tiberiu's status would be questionable.

edited 21st Nov '13 4:00:21 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Wait a minute, on the Orphanage from Higurashi, I thought groups don't count. The ring leader qualifies, but I don't think as a whole they count.

edited 21st Nov '13 4:07:07 PM by AustinDR

I have to wonder, in fact, if any of Frank's rogues are as bad as Frank himself. It's actually been implied occasionally that he's just as bad as they are, he just knows how to channel his homicidal urges away from innocents and toward people who deserve it. I think it's even been hinted once that he didn't love his family all that much, just used them as a convenient excuse to start a killing spree he would've started, probably on innocents, anyway.

edited 21st Nov '13 4:09:49 PM by HamburgerTime

Frank's so prone to Alternate Character Interpretation that getting a handle on just who he's supposed to be can be an absolute pain in the ass. I know that within the MAX imprint he's more consistent, and his enemies tend to be a hell of a lot worse than he is, which is why we have examples from MAX, but none from the regular Marvelverse (it also doesn't help that few of his enemies last long).

How does this look?

• The Joker from The Batman. Once a man who wanted to make people laugh, he fell into a vat of chemicals and became an insane, murderous Monster Clown and Batman's Arch-Enemy. Devoid of any empathy, Joker commits crimes he views as "jokes" at the expense of Gotham. Terrible things he's done include affecting people with his deadly laughing gas, putting people in various death traps, torturing Detective Ethan Bennett for hours and causing Bennett's mutation into Clayface, impersonating Batman and gassing people for minor crimes, using Bane's venom to go on a rampage, attempting to drop a teenage boy into a vat of chemicals, frequently mistreating his henchman and his girlfriend Harley Quinn, as well as abandoning them to be arrested or even to die, and filling the abandoned tunnels and mine shafts beneath Gotham with miles of dynamite to collapse the city to oblivion. That he manages to qualify despite being toned down to all get-out is a testament to how twisted a character Joker is.

edited 23rd Nov '13 12:55:53 PM by TVRulezAgain

I disagree, Frank loves his family, otherwise he wouldn't have cared if Nicky Cavella desecrated their bodies. I think you refering to the story in the Punisher Born series, where Frank seemed to enjoy killing in Vietnam way too much and even made a deal with a voice in his head that is suggested to be the grim reaper, to pay a price for the freedom to kill. The price is suggested to be Frank's family, though Frank didn't know that when he said yes to the voice's offer and regretted saying yes when he realized this. Everything suggests Frank loved his family, even if he does have an unhealthy obsession with killing.

The thing that separates Frank from his enemies is standards, Frank does not just kill anyone, he only targets criminals and the criminals he targets are pretty vile, they target innocent people. Frank Castle has some good deeds to his name, he risked his life to protect this little Russian girl who's DNA contained a weaponized virus that US and Russian forces wanted to get out of her through means that would have killed her. Frank also goes out of his way out to kill police officers who are just doing their jobs, which is a stark contrast to the psychos he fights who drop bodies of anyone who gets in their way.

If Frank is too heinous for his villains to count, then how many Black and Gray stories have C Ms? I think being a Complete Monster has more to do with who has the biggest body count, a villain can have a smaller body count then someone else and still be more vile then everyone else. I think if an Anti-Hero is killing mob bosses, while the villain is killing children and old women, then the villain is going to seem more heinous, if if the Anti Hero manages to kill more mob bosses then the villain manages to kill innocent, defenseless people.

edited 21st Nov '13 4:28:56 PM by TheOverlord

Looks good to me. Good job.

edited 21st Nov '13 4:31:12 PM by OccasionalExister

I will post on those soon but....

1. Cristu is not havin a real standard. He's a pragmatist. That's it. He doesn't get why his dad has to slaughter everyone and give them more problems when they can make money from cowed gangsters. It's the same reason why he's frustrated his dad kills one guy with his bare hands instead of just using a gun.

2. Tiberiu is just a sick old man who is beholden to his own crazy 'code' of manliness. He never expresses any affection to his wife. He just comments if someone defiled her grave he'd be bad as Frank there. He makes it clear he hates women in general and this is just that someone is defilin what belonged to him.

HT, I am not going to seriously entertain the notion Frank is more heinous than baby-killing human traffickers, psycho hitmen who have whole families wiped out or mobsters or kill kids and bake them into dumplings to feed to their fathers. It's just not somethin I can consider

Point conceded. Just wanted to make sure all interpretations of Frank (of which there are many, as Ambar said) are addressed here.

@Lightysnake and Overlord

While I agree with you that there are indeed Punisher CMs (at least in MAX. We don't have any from the main series), I don't think that HT's questions was unreasonable. Some authors have written Frank as a guy who'll gun you down for selling a gram of marijuana. Or for littering. Heck, remember Civil War, when he murders a pair of supervillains for showing up at Cap's meeting? I would contend that during the times when he is characterised that way, Frank is as bad as his enemies, or close enough that no one can qualify. There's Black-and-Grey Morality and there's Black-and-Black Morality, and under the pens of some writers, The Punisher veers directly into the latter.

That's not all the time though. While Frank's a serious piece of work in Punisher MAX, he still has enough standards that he's nowhere near the level of the Bulats or any of the other guys he faces. Similarly, there are plenty of times when main universe Frank has enough standards that we can examine his enemies to see if they qualify (most won't simply due to lack of screentime). I do however think that whenever we talk about The Punisher and his enemies, we need to talk about who was writing him at the time, and how they wrote him before determining if anyone from that run can qualify.

edited 21st Nov '13 5:09:59 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

That is fair, I think 616 Punisher is a bit more unreasonable then the Punisher from Punisher Max. Punisher Max goes after the worst criminals in the world, while 616 Punisher blows up Harmless Villain idiots like Stilt-Man. Punisher Max just has better priorities then 616 Punisher and because Punisher Max is essentially R rated, you can show the worst criminals in that series.