During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Anyways, new post here to top the page... I lied. One more before I get Lawgiver up. This one will be quick but easy.
What's the setting?
Lord of Lords: Ryu Knight is a Takehiko Itō Humongous Mecha manga later made into a fifty-two episode anime in the mid 90s. We follow the chivalrous but stupid aspiring knight Adeu the Sonic, in the realm of the mythical Earth Tear... a magical world born from the sword and shield of a great god, the sword of which still poking out over the horizon to be seen by all. Adeu is something known as a Ryu user, meaning he has control over a mecha that was once built to fight off the Jya-ryuzuko... or the Helldragon Tribe. It turns out the Mythic Shield that protects Earth Tear is fading... and the Helldragons are coming back.
Let's meet the candidate, who has by far the singular coolest name out of any villain I've proposed thus far: Emperor Helldragon.
Who is Emperor Helldragon? What has he done?
The Emperor of the Helldragon Tribe is exactly that; the grand ruler of the malicious alien race known as the Helldragons. Confined to a small, confined planet, Emperor Helldragon seeks Earth Tear and all of its spoils for his own gain. To this end, every one-thousand years, when the Mythic Shield starts to fade and the time is right, the Emperor sends his fleets to invade Earth Tear and try and break through, ravaging everything they come across and causing widespread death and destruction. The Ryus were built to stop the Helldragons' attacks, and a violent conflict ensued between the Ryu users and the Helldragons... ultimately leading to the Helldragons to be kicked off Earth Tear once more. Peace comes back to Earth Tear for one-thousand years, but of course, the Shield starts to fail again, and this time, the Emperor is playing for keeps. The Emperor's ultimate goal after breaking through the Shield and wiping out all the Ryus is to lead an all-out assault on Earth Tear with the full might of his army, slaughtering everyone who doesn't submit before cowing the survivors under him and dominating the planet.
The Emperor starts lobbing Helldragon ship after Helldragon ship through the Mythic Shield to disable it from the inside out, allowing the Helldragons free reign to tear apart everything they come across while slowly preparing the rest of his fleet to invade. The Helldragon also promotes a survival-of-the-fittest philosophy among his army, reasoning that any soldier who can't complete a mission is irrelevant, and through this has several less-than-optimal soldiers purged and brutally murdered. Once the Shield finally starts to break down through the efforts of his soldiers, the Emperor gets a lot more proactive, sending more and more ships to attack Earth Tear and wipe out the Ryus, leading to several inhabited cities being massacred by his troops in the process and leading to the deaths of many of the show's heroes (many of whom which get better, but I digress) in the process as they fight off the continued attacks. Eventually, the Emperor arrives in his mothership and resolves to slaughter the Ryus and everyone fighting with them himself. Once he's informed the Shield won't be down for much longer, the Emperor simply orders his mothership to simply land on the ground and crush everyone beneath it. Ultimately, though, Adeu combines the power of the Ryus to launch one final attack against the Emperor, vaporizing him and the entire Helldragon Tribe with it.
Any mitigating factors?
Definitely not. The Emperor doesn't care a whit for his own people... despite the fact he and the Helldragons are situated on a tiny, desolated planet, the Emperor makes it clear he's not interested in fighting for his people so much as he is seeking conquest for the sake of it. Add the fact that he happily allows countless of his own followers to die for not measuring up to his strict standards of perfection and I think he passes here. No other concerns with heinousness or any other redeeming factors... any potential concerns with agency I had with references to the Helldragons being creations of an evil god fell apart when Galden (the first Big Bad and a pawn of one of the Emperor's soldiers) proves having the Helldragon's blood within you does not necessarily mean you have to be an evil prick by nature, making a full Heel–Face Turn and everything.
Conclusion?
I'd say keep him.
Thoughts?
edited 25th Aug '17 2:08:46 AM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Scraggle: I'll change that for Cain later today.
As for Reaper: Oh yes, he meets a deservedly gruesome end. As a side note: What's with Laymon and killers who like to violently kill women? Yikes.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Kondo.and Grady.
Emperor Helldragon. I mean, he doesn't seem too special, but sure, wanting to destroy/conquer the world is enough.
edited 25th Aug '17 2:17:47 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Emperor Helldragon. God that's a cool name.
I'm not arguing against his inclusion but I have to ask about Negaduck. He seems to be in a similar situation to Comrade Black, remember? Where his actions are played seriously, but also he himself has several moments of comedy. What's the difference here between Negaduck qualifying and Black not?
edited 25th Aug '17 2:14:55 AM by MahStache
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, not an extraordinarily heinous candidate of mine — especially considering some of my other keeps — but I'm not going to turn down the chance to propose a guy named Emperor friggin' Helldragon.
I think the differentiation mainly hinges on the difference of the tone of the character between the cartoon and the comic. From what I gather, the version of Negaduck in the comic is played quite a bit more seriously and murderously while the cartoon — while I'd lean as much closer to Comrade Black and can't count either due to how he's treated — is much more of a caricature.
edited 25th Aug '17 2:26:25 AM by Scraggle
Messenger from another dimension.
Emperor Helldragon.
Is the anime worth watching?
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
I'd say so. It's a bit by-the-book in some respects but the characters are memorable and it does have some genuinely powerful moments, especially towards the final episode.
to the Reaper, Taro Kondo and Grady Fisher.
Yes to the Reaper, Kondo, and Grady. Funny thing, but one of the names from Grady's story of origin caught my attention: Officer Bobby Drake.
Sheesh, I know power levels for superheroes can be inconsistent, but I never thought Ice Man would job that hard to a normal hitman. :^y
edited 25th Aug '17 4:41:00 AM by FriedWarthog
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, I assume it's the original iteration of Helldragon?
I fixed Ys.
Yeah, Comrade Black's not really played seriously. Both games are quite fun though.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
Alright, so Annabelle: Creation; no one counts. The end.
I'm inclined to agree, and I think we may have issues with Valak as well, though I think we ought wait for the Nun there.
Yes to Grady and Helldragon
edited 25th Aug '17 5:52:58 AM by Lightysnake
to Reaper and Grady.
edited 25th Aug '17 6:00:09 AM by Youtubenut
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Grady and Emperor Helldragon
@Scraggle Interesting. So for fanworks stuff, If the genre is changed but the original author still respects the original work, Then there's a chance that it would be discussed for this trope. Like this for example: I make a fanfiction based on Nicktoons characters and the settings itself is kind of rather grimdark and one of them in there is a Complete Monster. However, Despite it's grimdark nature, I would say I tried to make a good story about it and try to respect the original source. So with all that being said, Will this candidate from the fanfic I made will be discussed for a CM cleanup thread or no?
@Lightysnake Regarding Valak.........I'll have to admit that I kind of seeing this demon counting given his actions in Conjuring 2 and he show's his full agency I guess in the movie. Not only that, He show's his sadism towards the Warrens and the Hodgson family with his actions. And yeah, Fun fact about Valak: He is one of the C Ms that ended up become a meme. You may not seen it in America, But in my country, Valak's quite popular and ended up become a meme in there just like Dio Brando :P But eh........Memes doesn't matter for Valak qualifying/disqualifying as a CM status so yeah.......Let's see for the discussion regarding The Nun to see if Valak stays or not.
@Austin DR Let me guess, The reason why Anabelle doesn't count it's because of her being made of evil and being an ambiguous entity no? I haven't seen the movie but I have a vibe that she doesn't count because of that
edited 25th Aug '17 6:23:38 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lizzid people!
Demons in the Conjuring series have moral agency. She/it doesn't do as much as she/he/whatever-the-fuck-it-is to stand out, especially when you have Valak to factor into.
Annabelle is an inaniamte object. The demon controlling her is the issue.
The big problem is the Annabelle demon is quite a bit more sadistic and brutal than Valak from what's been shown so far, and the two are basically interchangeable. In one another's places, I could see either doing the exact same
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Interesting. So the main problem with the demon in that movie is that she got out heinoused by Valak which almost done the same thing no? Or is it because the demon's doesn't display enough personality
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Does Valak nave any notable crimes to add to his/its rap sheet?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not unless you count 10 seconds of screentime gazing creepily into the camera, or appearing in a creepy photograph.
I mean, Valak has personality, but if Annabelle is an indication, the demons are quite interchangeable.
emperor helldragon
Helldragon
And with unanimous s...
- Blood and Black Lace: Massimo Mariano is a greedy Italian fashion modeling agent who moonlights as a vicious masked Serial Killer. Prior to the start of the story, Massimo murdered a wealthy Count and staged his death as an accident, seducing and secretly marrying his widow, Cristina Como, and making her his accomplice. When his crime was discovered and used as blackmail leverage by one of his agency's models, Isabella, Massimo took on his secret identity for the first time and brutally strangled her to death. Learning of the existence of a diary in which Isabella documented the crime amongst other dark secrets of her co-workers, he murders two other models who had attempted to steal it to hide their own vices, the first, Nicole, by gouging out her eyes, and the second, Peggy, by shoving her face-first into a hot stove. When he is detained by the police, Cristina murders a fourth model to give him an alibi, and, clearly uncomfortable, requests the killings stop. He orders her to perform one last job: kill a fifth model, stage the death as a suicide, and leave the killer's costume behind to frame the dead woman. Cristina does, so, but as she makes her escape through a balcony, Massimo arrives and impersonates a police officer, hoping to startle her into falling to her death and leaving him heir to her fortune. With no place in his heart for anything other than himself and money, Massimo set the standard dozens of other slasher villains would have to live up to.
The Unknown Unknown
Emperor Helldragon. Cool name.
Helldragon
Oh yeah, and as a comment on the whole grimdark thing... I'm only kosher with those kinds of things if there's, as Njrxll said, a complete and utter genre change. If you invent a credible setting with an actual story and place preexisting characters in it like with There Will Be Brawl or Breakfast of the Gods, I'm fine with that. If you take a established setting and just make it as dark as you can for no believable reason aside from "the edge, like the countless Pony torture fics or Prison Island Break (which, among other things, turns Shadow the Hedgehog into Shadow the Rapehog) we're not going to take those stories or any candidates within them seriously.