Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Ok done.

Hank.

Hank

The guy forcibly impregnated his teenage daughter and you wondered if it was a qualifier? Barring a good reason to change it, I'm gonna say "yes" on that.

For Marvel, one GOOD villain was Red Skull. Of course, it's (almost) impossible to screw him up. The fact that Hugo Weaving was clearly having fun playing him helped.
Hank. Kinda seems like Owen Mallory.

edited 24th Jun '16 10:56:20 PM by ACW

Gul'dan or however you spell it.

Does the two week rule apply to fanfics?

Henrik. He's easily one of the nastiest pieces of shit on the show (and having seen all but the latest three episodes there are A LOT of shitty people.)

Going back to James Gillies.

Part of the reason I nominated him isn't just his high bodycount (by the show's standards most claim one maybe 2 victims an episode) but that he arguments them with personal sadism. He kills Robert by sawing his head off while he's alive, and with Julia he a.) buries her alive b.) spends months creating a way to frame her for murder, causing her to be run through the ringer for two episodes (When Murdoch bursts in with the tape proving Gillie's guilt, the executioner's hand is on the lever.) After he's caught he mockingly says they should thank him.

The other three I mentioned had freudian excuses and their victims were by and large complete shitheads (the women who murdered a fellow because they disapproved of her being in an interracial relationship, the brothers who tormented the guy since he was a child, the men who accidentally shot the would be killer and callously left him to perish in the cold woods). Gillies victims are more sympathetic. His professor never hurt anyone. Robert was a weak willed individual. Darcy....was kind of a dick but it was possible to feel sorry for him given that he had fallen in love with Julia, married her, initially agreed to do the gentlemanly thing, realized he still loved her, got rebuffed, and not only realized Julia didn't love him back but probably never really did and was using him to avoid facing her feelings for Murdoch. The guy behaves in a douchey manner but you can feel a little sorry for the poor guy. The woman....helped Gillies but was a battered wife trying to flee her husband.

By the show's standards he's a nasty piece of work. He has a higher bodycount then most, and unlike the few who can match he does his crimes purely for enjoyment/revenge on Murdoch for catching him that one time.

He's treated seriously in universe. Otherwise hardened and tough people are scared of him. Murdoch actually wants to see the guy hang.

'Yes' to Hank. Seems like a real disgusting prick.

Anywho, a couple weeks back, I had reserved Valak's effortpost, however I switched it over to Lightysnake. However, he has informed me he's had a long week and is beat, and as such, the effortpost will now be done by me. So, without further adeiu....

Who is....it?

Valak. The defiler. The profane. The marquee of snakes. The Arch-Enemy of the Warrens in the films (Thus far). The Big Bad of The Conjuring 2.

Put in simpler terms, Valak is an actual demon, unlike the first film's Bathsheba, who was a ghost.

Due to never being given a definitive gender in film, I will be referring to Valak as "It" throughout this proposal.

What has it done?

The Amityville massacre. For those who haven't heard of this atrocity, the AM was basically a 20-something year old man slaughtering his entire family, consisting of his parents, his two teenage brothers, and his two sisters, one of which was only nine years old. In case you haven't guessed, Valak is revealed to have possesed the man and carried out the murders, leaving the man's life ruined and mind destroyed.

When the Warrens try to investigate the massacre, Valak horribly mentally tortures Lorraine Warren, terrifying her to such an extent that the Warrens leave the house without finishing their investigation.

Years later, Valak resurfaces by beginning to haunt a family of 5 in Enfield, England, consisting of a mother, 2 girls, and 2 boys. And I mean some bad hauntings, possessing the youngest girl, Janet, at regular times, and terrifying the children regularly. It also makes numerous attempts on the lives of the various members of the fam at different points throughout the film.

When the family, the Hodgsons, flee to a nearby house, Valak follows them and continues to haunt them and the couple they are residing with, coming close to killing a couple of them by flinging furniture at them.

The Warrens show up and try to investigate, however Valak continues It's tricks, and eventually orders Janet to convince them she's been faking the haunting, or It will kill her whole family.

After the Warrens leave, Valak possesses Janet again, and throws the girl's sister around the room for a bit, leading the whole family, barring Janet, to flee the house.

Now, this whole time, the Warrens have been under the impression that the ghost haunting the Hodgson's was an elderly man named Bill Wilkins, however, Lorraine has a premonition that reveals that the ghost of Wilkins is only a pawn Valak is using, refusing to let him to pass on to the other side and painfully forcing him to haunt the family, which is not fun for the poor old man.

The Warrens return to the house, where they see that Valak is preparing to have Janet fling herself out of her window and impale herself onto a sharpened tree.

Ed Warren heads up to try to stop her, however Valak then tries to get both Janet and Ed to fall out of the window in an attempt to kill them both, and, when Lorraine tries to intervene, Valak tries to force her to watch the ensuing deaths.

Lorraine, however, has learned Valak's name, and banishes It back to Hell, and the family is saved, and everyone lives happily ever after while fading out on some good ole fashioned Elvis Presley music (Thank ya' very much).

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

Ah, no.

Heinousness?

Even when compared to the absolute beast that is Bathsheba from the first film, Valak still sticks out, IMO.

It possessed a man to massacre his entire family, most of which were children (All onscreen), It painfully forced an innocent elderly man to haunt a family in It's name, refusing to let him pass into the afterlife, It regularly haunts and tries to kill the Hodgson family, most of which are children, through various means, and It tries to force a little girl to commit suicide, drag a man down with her, and force the man's wife to watch.

There are also plenty of implications that this is not Valak's first rodeo, so make of that what you will.

Final Verdict?

I'd give It a .

edited 25th Jun '16 1:31:23 AM by Ravok

to Valak, Gul'dan, Hank, and James.

edited 25th Jun '16 2:15:12 AM by G-Editor

Easy Valak (what a Weaksauce Weakness though). I'm guessing the sole motivation is For the Evulz? And I'll guess Bathsheba still counts due to having fewer resources (unless she was under Valak's control)? Oh, and hello Meaningful Name.

edited 25th Jun '16 2:21:59 AM by ACW

For Valak I'm abstaining for now.

• Orphan Black: Henrik "Hank" Johanssen from season two stands out as a depraved character in this show full of depraved and morally dubious characters. Johanssen is the leader of a branch of the Proletheans, operating on a ranching community. Separating from the Prolethans more traditional views in favour of scientific curiosity, Johanssen operates his branch and seemingly peaceful community, as a breeding cult, where women are artificially inseminated and children are regularly abused. When Hank gets his hands on Helena, discovering she's a rare fertile clone, Hank has her handler Tomas killed so he can keep her. He proceeds to drug and forcibly marry Helena before taking her ovaries and fertilizing them with his sperm, planning to implant those embryos in multiple women. When Helena escapes with the help of Hank's teenage daughter Gracie, Hank has Gracie locked in a cage and her mouth sewn shut as punishment; it's implied this is a usual punishment for her. He shows more affection towards his follower Mark than he does Gracie and even then he's controlling and indifferent to Mark's feelings, and it's discovered Mark, a Project CASTOR clone is merely a replacement to Abel, a stillborn attempt of Hank's recreating project CASTOR. When Helena returns, Henrick has her inseminated with their embryos before proceeding to do the same with Gracie. He keeps them locked in a nursery, holding them at gunpoint and sends his wife to find more women for him to impregnate. While hiding behind a thin veil of a warm fatherly demeanour, Hank's motivations are that since a fertile clone is a scientific impossibility, he's the only one worthy of fathering children with them and spreading the genres of "miracle babies".

edited 25th Jun '16 5:40:21 AM by Beast

Valak.

@bobg: Yeah, same two weeks rule applies.

Valak, but barely. It seems like one of those Made of Evil cases, but we've had demons qualify before. Main reason why I'm giving an up-vote is because of the sheer lengths It goes just to torture and kill innocent people.

edited 25th Jun '16 5:51:25 AM by Tyk5919

I've read the case for Machinedramon and I give him a definite for similar reasons to Grand Moff Tarkin. He's just as evil as Piedmon,but he doesn't have the resources or screen time to do as much. Don't forget his rap sheet includes terrorism, slavery and a body count of hundreds if not thousands Piedmon sharing culpability in his crimes isn't a valid argument against him either, the same could be said with Tarkin and Palpatine but he still counts. The entry on the YMMV page that started this debate in the first place mentioned that he becomes Milleniummon in a spin off series of games but didn't explain what he does, the only details I know are he's partly responsible for corrupting Ken and his Zeed incarnation from the last game is an Omnicidal Maniac.

Also I'm not entirely sure these two count;

• Leigh Emerson is perhaps the most vicious inmate at Briarcliff. Originally put in prison as a young man for stealing a loaf of bread, Emerson was raped by several inmates, which twisted him into a maniac. He later murders several families on Christmas, children included, while dressed as Santa Claus. As an inmate at Briarcliff, he attacks an orderly during a Christmas photoshoot, which results in a year-long stay in solitary confinement for him as well as a banning of further Christmas celebrations. When the Devil frees him from this solitary confinement, he is eager to resume his killing spree and his first act is to attack Sister Jude with beating canes and attempt to rape her. Though she manages to non-fatally stab him, he still successfully pins the blame on her. Claiming to want redemption, he convinces Monsignor Howard to baptize him. Afterward, he dunks Howard's head in the tank in an attempt to drown him and nails him to a cross in place of Jesus before escaping from Briarcliff and murdering at least seven nuns.

Hehas a decent Freudian Excuse described in his entry, while there are other villains in the same series that are just as bad if not worse that have no excuse for their behaviour.

Genevieve Aristide is responsible for the events of the first game, opening up the vault despite the head of that project telling her what a horrible idea it was. When Alma's mental ghost manages to break Paxton Fettel out, her main priority is to cover up Armacham's involvement in the whole affair, ordering their security teams to kill one of her own employees who knew too much. In the second game, it's discovered she also authorized two more unethical Projects; Harbinger which tried to take sick individuals and transform them into another Psychic Commander, but only survived to twist them into monstrous forms. The other was Project: Paragon, which involved taking children with promising mental and physical attributes and enrolling them in a fake elementary school, where they would be fed chemicals to grant them psychic powers and sedatives so they could be taken to an underground lab, all in the hopes of finding future candidates for Harbinger. And when all of these projects blow up in her face and result in the city being devastated by a massive explosion and Alma's psychic outbursts, her main priority is capturing Alma so she can maintain her position in Armacham, sacrificing Beckett to be raped by Alma and killing Stokes to prevent her from interfering.

She seems to have standards, if her disgust about Harlan Wade basically impregnating his daughter is anything to go by.

Valak

We've brought up Hakumen no Mono from Ushio and Tora in this thread before, but now the anime's finished, I'd like to revisit the big beastie. Basically, I'd say it should be removed due to moral-agency issues - it's Made of Evil in a way that nothing else in the setting is.

A bit of background first. The story of Ushio and Tora is heavily rooted in Japanese mythology. There are humans, and there are youkai, strange supernatural creatures who are usually Invisible to Normals but become more visible through long-term exposure. It's hinted throughout the story, and confirmed at the end, that all youkai were once human, either dying and being reborn or losing their humanity through other, stranger means.

And then there's the Hakumen no Mono.

The Hakumen is a truly ancient and utterly malevolent fox-demon, as old as humanity itself. It's broadly considered to be a particularly big and powerful youkai, the enemy of both humans and monsters, but that's a bit of a misnomer. In reality, it's a straight-up Eldritch Abomination, a creature that wasn't created from humanity, but with it. In the beginning, there was just primal yin and yang, darkness and light. Humanity was born of the light, and the Hakumen was born of the by-products, the dark, evil residue left over. It's a demon in a more Western sense, a being of pure evil that is literally empowered by fear and hatred and simultaneously admires and resents humanity for the goodness it was born with. The way in which it is redeemed is particularly telling - by killing it, our heroes allow it to be freed of its (literally) cursed existence and be reincarnated as a creature of yang, a human child.

No other creature in the story has that problem - several of the youkai may be... let's say... morally-disadvantaged by the way they lost their humanity, but none of them are straight-up Made of Evil. A really good example is the other Complete Monster candidate from the show, Guren, who remains a rock-solid keep. He was a vicious, murderous bandit before he encountered the enchanted weapon that turned him into a (again, literally) bloodthirsty youkai, and the story makes a point of showing that unlike any of that weapon's other wielders, being transformed into a monster didn't affect him psychologically in the slightest. It just gave him more ways to do what he'd liked to do all along, hurt people. Unlike Hakumen, he never gets an Alas, Poor Villain or Death Equals Redemption moment, either. The only tragedy in his death is that it took so much effort to take him down.

So yeah, we can keep Guren, but Hakumen needs to go.

Expanding on why Aristide has standards, her entry on the characters page explains this in more detail; Oddly enough, she has moments of humanity - for instance, warning the staff of the Harbinger facility that the black-ops team was coming and giving practical advice on how to hold them off, and her disgust for Harlan Wade's...method of producing the Prototypes.

to Hank Johanssen and Valak.

edited 25th Jun '16 6:54:59 AM by MGD107

If there is any character that the F.E.A.R. series tries to portray as unambiguously monstrous, it's Harlan Wade.

Red Skull good? I thought he was totally boring.

Then again, Captain America and the cliché Nazi Villains in particular are my personal comic pet peeve.

My Top 3 favorite MCU Villains are Kilgrave, Kingpin and Grant Ward.

So with that said should Aristide be removed, and maybe replaced with Wade? And what about Machinedramon?

I think Machinedramon was voted down quite clearly. I also voted it down

edited 25th Jun '16 12:26:01 PM by Forenperser

Actually he seemed to be a pretty divisive case going by what I've read. I've also got another character to nominate called Hawthorne.