During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Pale Lady.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- The Belgariad:
- Magician's Gambit: Ctuchik is High Priest of the Grolims, and chief disciple of Torak, ruling Cthol Murgos in Torak's stead after the god was left comatose. Completely uninterested in awakening Torak, Ctuchik nevertheless keeps Grolim rituals of Human Sacrifice going for five hundred years, sacrificing untold thousands of slaves to a god he does not even worship in order to cement his control over the priesthood. Pursuing his own agenda, Ctuchik aims to Take Over the World in order to satiate his lust for power, and maintains a private torture chamber for his own amusement.
- The Malloreon: Zandramas, the Big Bad of this sequel series, is a former Grolim priestess who liked to cut out people's hearts and bathe in their blood while nude. Her crimes include cruelty to animals; betraying everyone who helps her; kidnapping Garion's son Geran; having successfully started a civil war in the east and attempting to start one in the west; brain-washing Ce'Nedra, regularly trying to break the rules of Prophecy; and cannibalism. She uses ships to travel undetected, but once at her location, she kills the other sailors, often either by burning the ships or feeding the sailors to wild animals. Even the Big Bad, Torak, leaves a note to Garion asking him to stop Zandramas.
edited 2nd Jun '16 10:46:35 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Pale Lady
Lizzid people!
Pale Lady.
At last, here is Falla Cii from Rosario Vampire:Brightest Darkness.
Who is she ?
Falla Cii is Luna's sister and Complica's sister. As such, she belongs to the chronoflies' race. Falla Cii was one of the three princesses of the chronoflies' kingdom. The king and the queen choose who would be the queen upon the later's death. However, Falla Cii only wanted to be the queen for the power. Due to Luna's and Complica's carefree and nice nature, she thinks both of them are unfit for the role.
What does she do ?
Backstory :
Complica's boyfriend died from a car accident. Taking advantage of her despair, she tells her how to use Chrono Displacement. It allows the user to travel at any point in the time. The problem ? It sacrifices the user's life force and dooms them to die by the next day. So basically, she sent Complica to her death. Why ? She saw her as a disgrace to their species and was glad that she died. Keep in mind Complica is her little sister !
Complica's death led Luna to use the Chrono Displacement spell. She spelled it wrong, so it was going to tear her appart. The king knew and stepped in to try to stop the spell. Earlier, he chose Luna as the next queen. Of course, Falla reacted poorly at this new. So what does she do ? She tried to kill Luna by pushing her into the ball of light created by the spell. The king saw that and pushed Luna to die in her place. Falla told Luna that she was also fine with that, saying he deserved to die for choosing Luna over her.
Deciding that if she can't be queen, nobody will, Falla engaged a death battle against Luna. After fighting a while, Luna ended up temporarily delusional due to using too much her powers. During this time, enraged, Falla used the Ender spell, a technique which erase from time, forever, everything and everyone within the range of the attack. The kingdom and all of the chronoflies (including the queen) were literally wiped out of existence. The only one spared was Luna, thanks to the queen.
Present :
Trapped in a plane of existence (long story), Falla make a deal with Luna : as soon as she help her to get out of here, Falla will help her to save Rason (who once saved Luna from being raped) from dying later. At one word from the end of the spell, when Luna demands Falla to tell her how to save Rason, she sadistically told her that she needs to use the Chrono Displacement because he's destined to die.
As the spell wasn't completed, Falla was freed, but unable to use her powers. So she faked a Heel-Face Turn in order to get Luna to finish the spell through several acts of kidness. As soon as Luna truly believes that Falla can change and restores her magic, Falla promptly bisects her in cold blood, openly complaining about how much "nice crap"; she had to do just to get Luna to cooperate, proceeds to rub it in the gang's faces that it was all an act, and tells Tsukune that when she's finished killing them, she'll visit Tsukune's mom and cousin (Kyouko) and show them just "what kind of friend" she really is. She is killed and replaced by a far more sympathetic version of herself from an Alternate Timeline.
She returns as a disembodied soul, with Jovian and Jacqueline. She needs the pandora's box to get back her body with the Pandora's box, which is in the group's possession. In order to get it, Falla inflicts Cold-Blooded torture on her good counterpart, gleefully tearing her wings, arm, leg off and breaking her ankle, while forcing the group to watch. It failed, so Falla took Kyoko as a human shield to keep her good counterpart from fighting back. To have her scream before dying, she drops her to the ground from the sky.
Is she heinous by the story's standard ?
Oh yeah. The group didn't like her that much when they learned about her past. The only one who did was Kyoko, as she saved her twice (out of pragmatic villainy, of course). Her own sister wanted her dead (after everything Falla did, you can hardly blame her). After all of Falla's actions in Act V (when she returned as a soul), Kyoko of all people has beaten the ever loving shit out of her. Cela, good Falla's BF, to give her another eye (indeed, both Falla's had only one eye), he ripped evil falla's eye to give it to her. Finally, Kyoko came and crushed her skull with a baseball bat until she dies. When you get the group to hate you so much, including her sister and her former best friend, you know that you are bad.
The only ones who outclass her in heinoussness had superior ressources or power. And most of them at least had redeeming qualities or credible explanation to their villainy. Which leads to the last part...
Redeeming factors ?
None. Even if she had a freudian excuse, I can hardly imagine one that would remotely come close to explain how much of a massive bitch she is. I mean, try to find a freudian excuse for a girl sent who sent her own little sister to her death out of spite, killed her father, slaughtered her entire species, destroyed her hometown in a fit of rage, all simply because she was denied what she believed was her right to rule the chronofly kingdom, and is above all else a smug Jerkass who believes It's All About Me and has a Lack of Empathy that's borderline sociopathic. And that's without taking into account what she did in the present day.
Final Verdict ?
Unless someone else who has read the fic disagree and come up with convincing arguments indicating otherwise, I think she is an easy keeper.
edited 1st Jun '16 7:33:57 AM by MiraiYuji
"far more sympathetic version of herself from an Alternate Timeline"
I think I might need to know a little more on this before I vote on Falla. Does the existence of such a counterpart present a theoretical - but possible - circumstance where Falla can be redeemed or given altruistic traits?
On Zandramas... Given the original quality of the writeup, I'm skeptical that character ever went through the thread, or at least not in much detail.
I asked the same thing about Feather Duster a while back; no one seemed to have a problem with it. Or they just didn't want to think about it.
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, it seems that much. That might've just been from the remnants. I mean, she probably counts, but an effortpost would be nice. I'll hold off for now.
Also, found this on Koontz's page. Lighty? Though Dark Knight!Joker probably thought the same thing (seems like him and Corky would get along well).
- Well-Intentioned Extremist: Corky Laputa from The Face genuinely does believe that if he brings down civilization as we know it, a better civilization really will rise from the ashes. He just has no compunctions about what he has to do to accomplish that. Other villains from Koontz's works tend to fall under this category as well. Koontz's recent novels tend to indicate that this is where he believes most evil comes from: if you think humanity needs fixing, you don't really love humans or the things that matter about us.
- Arguably Victor Frankenstein falls into this category in some moments, he seems to genuinely believe that he's doing the human race a service by wiping them out and replacing them with his New People; he even muses at one point that if he were to die, the future would be bleak for the world. On some twisted level, in his own mind he's fixing the world by killing everyone.
edited 1st Jun '16 8:05:11 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
If someone thinks a Dean Koontz villain is well intentioned, they haven't been paying much attention to the book.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, that settles that ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Wuz brought up a good question here. Do we just wanna nuke all those unapproved examples and link to the thread?
edited 1st Jun '16 8:14:11 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Anyone agree to cut Bruce Willis'The Jackal ? In case someone forgot the cause is that in the climax he let the girl he took as a hostage go after having promised to do so if Declan would have dropped the gun. So he kept his promise and also it might suggest he may have some standards.
Another case we should give a look at: In The Last King of Scotland during the infamous torture sequence Amin watches Nicholas with a genuine heartbroken look in his face. He also leaves the room sheding a tear in the process. Is he sorry to having someone he considered his best friend tortured ? Or is he genuine hurt for his betrayal ? A villain who cries or at least shows sadness is usually a disqualify case, isn't he ?
Falla. I don't see how the alternate timeline version would affect anything for the main timeline.
I agree with cutting The Jackal, but keep Amin....he's been discused long, LONG in the past.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Speaking of cutting, what about Aki Honda? And the My Little Pony Fan Works and Pokémon Fan Works entries?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Wild Child
I'd say Keep for all three of the above.
Also, this may seem off topic, but when can I add a new conversation to the Image Morgue, which is apparently archived at the moment.
I kind of agree with cutting jackal
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Yeah, cut Jackal. He doesn't seem like he goes over-the-top and his kill count is kinda low.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lizzid people!
Falla.
Now, since I know Amin has been discussed a lot could someone tell me in short why he looks sad as he watches Nicholas being tortured ?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm fine w/ cutting Jackal.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cut Jackal. I say cut Honda.
I'm not casting a vote on Falla until someone clears up that alternate timeline bit.
edited 1st Jun '16 9:59:52 AM by Scraggle
to Falla and the Pale Lady.
edited 1st Jun '16 9:45:41 AM by Overlord
Pale Lady and Fallia
Cut Honda, there is a difference between a disgusting MEH crosser and a CM.
edited 1st Jun '16 10:43:20 AM by username2527
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I hate to do this, but I have to be a Single-Issue Wonk (well-double issue):
- Wuz's question about the YMMV page?
- Zandramas?
EDIT: Forgot about finishing up Unicron.
edited 1st Jun '16 10:48:37 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Planeswalker
Pale Lady and Falla.
ACW, I went over Dragon Prince again and I just can't interpret Ianthe as loving her sons. Whenever she interacts with them she's just triumphant that she can have boys and Sioned can't and that she will gain power through controlling them. No mention of love anywhere, just happiness that she's a step closer to her goals and "better" than her romantic rival.
Oissu!