Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Agnes. New entries are added Monday BTW.

It depends on how the comedy blends in with there evil. The Joker and Hades humor comes from just how sick they are. To a comedic Monster they're villainy is only funny for them but not to the characters or audience. I think a good way to tell if a villain is played for comedy is if their actions Crosses the Line Twice. Take someone like Aku for example. Who will do something horrible like destroy cities and then will order a pizza. That Crosses the Line Twice.

Now i'm not saying exactly that Agnes was Played for Laughs but with the silly title of the movie and all, I just want to be safe.

Watching Agnes, I get the impression it's one of those cases where the rest of the film may be comedic, but the villain itself is not. Because I get practically no humor from this character. The film doesn't treat her for humor, either.

edited 20th Dec '15 2:28:21 PM by Clown-Face

Going back to Chara, I feel like the player determined actions argument wouldn't apply to him/her like it does other characters. Not only are several of Chara's actions in genocide route planned by him/her before the game even begins, but Chara makes it quite clear in the genocide route ending that the player doesn't have control over him/her.

Chara: Since when where you in control?

In Chara's case, it feels that the player is what made it possible for him/her to do his actions, not the complete cause of it.

edited 20th Dec '15 12:25:43 PM by Awesomekid42

Hooray! I managed to see Star Wars without getting a single thing spoiled for me!

And looking back on the last few days of this thread, it seems like nothing's been spoiled here, either, so good on all of you.

One question: how do we explain Animated Darkseid's Pet the Dog moment when he makes sure the Parademons won't die in an explosion ?

Having seen the scene, it seems more like it was done out of obligation. I mean, he shows no care for them otherwise (such as when Batman tricks him into shooting one with his Omega Beams in JLU).

I have two characters from the Pony POV Series I would like to discuss, one I would recommend adding, and one I recommend cutting.

I will start with the character I recommend cutting first:

Who are they?

An unnamed Pegasus filly who was described as a Child Prodigy, who had intelligence and, despite being a Pegasus, an understanding of magic rivaling that of even Star Swirl the Bearded.

What does she do?

Hmm... what indeed. She was just a filly Pegasus, and yet she had intelligence and an understanding of magic rivaling that of one of the most powerful full grown unicorns in existence. What did she decide to do with all of that potential? Why... Go looking for a coltfriend of course. Yeah, she was just a filly and she was focused on romance. However, with all her potential, she had a very pompous aditude, and would only accept colts that met her expectations. Because of her snooty additude and the fact that she was probably too young to have a coltfriend, she had no success (actually, there was one colt who wanted to be with her, but she rejected him). Blaming Cupid (who was an actual deity that is known by mortal ponies to exist in this story), she used her great mind to create a weapon that was powerful enough to erase any being from existence in one blow, even the most powerful of deities. This weapon was called the Concept Killing Spear. She found Cupid (presumably on Hearts and Hooves day), and erased him from existence. This caused all the couples that Cupid had brought together over the centuries to have never met, resulting in their family lines never being born, wiping entire family lines from existence. Cupid also apparently allowed the changelings to live without having to feed off of the love of other beings, so when she destroyed him, she caused the changelings to go from a peaceful race to the creatures that they are in cannon. She was taken to the father of all allicorns, who showed her the result of her actions, how the changelings became evil and how she wiped billions of beings from existence. Even after seeing all this, she feels no regret what so ever, not even bothering to try and fake remorse to avoid being sent to Tartarus just so that she can spite the gods by refusing to apologize for her actions. Needless to say, she goes straight to Tartarus for this.

Is she heinous by the standards of the story?

Oh yes. It is stated that the only being that did more evil than her was Nightmare Eclipse.

Does she have a Freudian Excuse or any redeeming qualities?

No. While she was upset over her inability to find a coltfriend, that was her own fault for being such a jerk, not to mention it does not even come anywhere near close to mitigating her actions.

Any possible mitigating factors?

Before you all bring up the fact that she was a child, keep in mind that she was extremely intelligent for her age. The father of all allicorns himself states that she knew EXACTLY what she did, and she was not naïve or ignorant at all. The only thing that could possibly disqualify her, is the fact that she is a nameless Enfant Terrible who appears in one chapter of a story that is over two hundred chapters long (and counting).

I will discuss the entry I recommend cutting in a different post.

I can't comfortably vote on the First Child. I've yet to play Undertale, but from all I've heard and read the First Child's motivations and character, aside from his few snippets of dialogue on some endings (which still don't clarify why he's doing what he does) are quite vague, and the whole metafictional idea of Undertale makes me quite uncomfortable. Realistically, the Fallen Child may potentially be outclassed in heinousness by the player (who's treated as a character in Undertale, especially seeing as the First Child directly talks to you when he actually does have direct screentime), who can basically choose to destroy and recreate the world as many times as they want.

But, I digress, because what I've argued is definitely erroneous in some manner. Abstaining on the First Child.

edited 20th Dec '15 1:46:05 PM by Scraggle

Cupid-killing filly. She sounds like the worst one-shot villain ever, and the Pony POV Series sounds like it isn't meaningless bullshit Dark Fic.

First of all, bobg, at the top of your sentence, I think you meant to say "adding" instead of "cutting".

Second of all, to the filly.

And if no one objects, here's a test write-up for Agnes.

Hansel & Gretel Get Baked: Agnes is a vile witch with a predilection for murder and cannibalism. Agnes lures oblivious people into her household and subjects them to grotesque torture before sucking out their youth to replenish her own. She kidnaps Gretel's boyfriend, Ashton, and mutilates him horrifically, including tearing out his eye and eating it. When her dealer Manny warns her that a local drug kingpin is coming for her, Agnes kills him before doing the same to the kingpin and his henchmen. She kidnaps Gretel and her friend Bianca and later attempts to cook Gretel's brother Hansel alive. She succeeds in murdering Bianca before seemingly being killed by Hansel and Gretel. However, she survives and promptly murders a man to steal his car.

edited 20th Dec '15 2:22:04 PM by Clown-Face

Currently, Chara is at 6 (including me), 7, and 1 abstain. I'll wait until tomorrow to do a potential write to in case their are more votes.

to Anges and the Filly.

edited 20th Dec '15 7:55:34 PM by SatoshiBakura

on Agnes. on Chara due to too much meta-related issues and possibly still being your PC.

Chara

We stated over and over again that Chara is not Frisk nor the player. They are completely different characters. Chara died long before Frisk came along, and their spirit is trying to possess Frisk's body.

And really, the player doesn't actually seem to control either Frisk or Chara, but rather acts as a guiding force that they use. For example, the ability to save is attributed to Frisk, not the player.

edited 20th Dec '15 3:24:28 PM by SatoshiBakura

Filly.

Nameless Filly. She's pretty impressive!

Since I've already posted about him, I should make my for Chara explicit.

to the Nameless Filly

Like I said, they are a guiding force that is used, not a controller. Chara even states at the end that they, not the player, are the one actually in control.

Clearly there are others who feel differently. Plus a good chunk of nos mentioned other issues of heinousness and mitigating factors.

I know. But there are reasons. For example, the player being able to reset the game, while cruel, doesn't count because Chara doesn't have the power to do that, which is why they force the player to do it for them when the player beats the game.

Another thing on Chara's heinous status: they destroy the friggen world at the end without the player's input. In order to restore it, the player must make a deal with them, forcing them to kill everyone and destroy the world all over again. If they don't do that, then Chara takes control at the end of the credits.

A few of the nos don't seem to realize the difference between Frisk and Chara. Frisk is the pure good child who falls down at the beginning of the game. Chara is the pure evil child who falls down in a flashback.

And Chara clearly states that the player only thinks that they are control. That is not an interpretation. That is explicit information given by the game. They also explicitly say that the determination and power is the player's, but not the decision making.

edited 20th Dec '15 4:34:53 PM by SatoshiBakura

Chara being in control is completely meta-textual though. If I completely ignored Chara while playing, there is no way for Chara to control me. I can turn off the damn game.

Look at it this way: I view Chara like I view the asshole from School Days. Chara doesn't appear unless you deliberately make choices to make yourself a dick, much like Nice Boat/Nice Train doesn't appear unless you are an absolute knob-end to everyone.

I will now be doing an effort post on the character from the Pony POV Series who I recommend delisting as a CM:

Who are they?

Film Critique, also known as the Pegasus Despot, a former nobody nerd who found the blue shard of the rainbow of light (representing laughter) and used it to take control of his city.

What does he do?

Film Critique steals all of the city's electricity, and uses it to power a generator in his palace. He extorts all of the city's inhabitants, making them give up their goods in exchange for electricity (he does not accept money as a form of currency, possibly because he likes to see them be deprived of the things they like). Film Critique and his thugs also go around bullying random ponies for fun. His worst act by far is using the blue shard to brainwash mares into becoming his sex slaves, taking them back to his palace where he makes them a part of his harem and proceeds to repeatedly rape them. When Patch tries to take the blue shard from him, he brainwashes her and makes her his sex slave too. Patch spends the next three days being kept in Film Critiques palace, being raped every night (thankfully, this happens off screen. The story never actually describes what happens or uses the word "rape", but once you read between the lines, it is pretty obvious what he did, and if you think I am thinking too deeply about it, he actually has a room that he calls, and I am not kidding here, the "Bow-Chicka-Wow-Wow Room"). Then, one night, Patch manages to break free of his mind control after seeing a shooting star. While Film Critique is sleeping, Patch sneaks into his room and steals back the blue shard, freeing the other mares from his control. Patch takes Film Critique to his former harem, and leaves with the shard while the angry mares murder him off screen with Arabian swords.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

Well, he is a Serial Rapist, and the only other time a sex crime has been committed in the fanfic that I recall is when Discord turned Blue Blood into a mare of living ice and sent a stallion made of solar flames to try and rape her to death. So, Film Critique does stand out by being the only serial rapist in a story where sex crimes are almost non existant. However, in terms of heinousness, I believe he falls short. For a non dark fic story, the Pony POV Series has a very high heinous standard; Discord caused a war that resulted in three genocides, canabalised his brother, and in the still ongoing finale arc, has twisted Equestria into a Crapsack World that combines a bunch of infamious MLP dark fics such as Cupcakes, Rainbow Factory, and Cheerilees Garden. Makarov was planning to build a machine that would disable Pegasus and griffon flight, sending thousands, if not millions falling to their deaths. Chrysalis was planning to build a rune that would suck all the love out of every living creature in Equestria and give it to her, leaving all beings in Equestria other than changelings as lifeless husks, while Kabuto not only willingly helped her despite being the only changeling who knew that that was her true endgame, but has a number of his own crimes, what with killing and experimenting on other beings including other changelings while deliberately neglecting to use anesthetic just to make the victim suffer. The nameless Pegasus filly has far fewer resources than any of the above, and yet has a much higher rapsheet than any of them despite only appearing in one chapter.

That's not getting into Nightmare Eclipse (described in universe to be the worst character in the story), who kept billions of innocent beings trapped in a "Groundhog Day" Loop where they suffered for hundreds of millions of years just so that she could take her revenge on Discord, mind raped alternate versions of the Mane Six from different timelines into being her Psycho Rangers, and tried to kill Twilight and her friends when they tried to stop her.

Film Critique (or the Pegasus Despot) extortiioned a city for electricity, bullied people, snd brainwashed a bunch of mares into being his sex slaves. Horrible yes, but it seems mild compared with what the other villains did.

Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities?

He was bullied in school. The jocks dunked his head in the toilets and the mares laughed at him. This prompted him to use the blue shard to make himself a king so he could bully others and make mares be his sex slaves. I should also mention that while a number of the mares he took were complete strangers who just caught his eye, a number of them were also the ones who laughed at him. This Freudian Excuse isn't much, but it's something.

As for redeeming qualities... Possibly. While Patch is checking his room for the shard, she finds a picture of his mother under his pillow, which could make him an example of Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas. He himself never even mentions his mother though.

Remorse?

Nope.

Conclusion?

He easily meets the baseline, what with being a Serial Rapist, but I am not sure if he really stacks up with the other entries in that series. He also has a Freudian Excuse (albeit a weak one) and sleeps with a picture of his mother under his pillow, so take that for what it's worth.

edited 20th Dec '15 5:10:53 PM by bobg

That's completely irrelevant. We are not talking about real life, but rather in the game. As long as you are playing the game and are going in that direction, they are explicitly, explicitly in control.

By that logic, that would disqualify a lot of monsters. We would have to disqualify Palpatine. The Sith Lords could have turned against him at any time, so therefor, Palpatine has no control over them. The only reason why Palpatine was able to control any of the Sith Lords was because they were willing to turn to the Dark Side. The only reason Chara is able to control the player is because the player are willing to turn to the Dark Side.

And Chara says "Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong". Not "you", but "we".