During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
If we are still discussing Creepypasta, I have another candidate, Uncle Johnny from Play With Me, he is the uncle of Sally, the main protagonist who is staying with Sally's family at the time of the story. He is also a child molester, and he molested Sally one night. She tried to tell her parents about it, they pass it off as a nightmare. Even though they didn't believe her, Johnny gets mad that she talked and takes her to an abandoned playground where he rapes and kills her. Don't know about you but that sounds like a keep to me.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ooh, yes! That is definitely a keep. But does he have a Freudian Excuse or anything like that? If not, I'd say that's a keep.
So for potential candidates we have The Villager from Aika, The Rake, Uncle Johnny, Sonic from Sonic.exe. That should be enough for a page. We should make one anyway just in case we add any more,
Did I miss any? I just got up, so...
Either way, I recommend we keep these creepypasta examples. At least the ones discussed here, because they aren't played for laughs or shock value.
I'll be going on a trip today so I can't discuss further candidates at the moment. I'll be back on Friday.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No, Johnny had no Freudian Excuse in the story. He is depicted as a sociopath who takes advantage of the trust of his family and it is mentioned he had went through a divorce, but he had a good riddance attitude about that because he has more privacy to himself, so there's the hint he has been a pervert for a while.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
So I've been giving Dumas's Musketeer saga a go as of late, and one character who I think deserves discussion in this thread is Milady de Winter from The Three Musketeers.
Who is she?
Milady (she goes through half a dozen aliases, and we never learn her real name) is the probably-French widow of the previous Baron de Winter, an English noble, and the brother-in-law of the present one. She's also one of the top agents of Cardinal Richelieu of France in his campaign to strengthen the French state and remove it of foreign influences. She's extraordinarily beautiful and charismatic, to the point where the heroes have learnt to assume by the end of the book that anyone she's spoken to, regardless of whether they've replied or not, is no longer a trustworthy ally, but she has a dark secret - she's branded with a fleur-de-lys, the symbol of a condemned criminal. It's already cost her one husband - Athos, The Lancer, once married her, but tried to kill her when he discovered the brand and realised she was a fugitive from justice.
What does she do?
Milady first enters The Hero, d'Artagnan's life in her capacity as an agent for Richelieu in his attempts to disgrace the queen of France, who has ties to the enemy nations of Spain and England (in particular, the commander of Britain's armed forces, the Duke of Buckingham, is in love with her). Nothing she does during this time is particularly evil, just counter to the protagonists' interests, so we'll skip over this. Things start spicing up, however, when d'Artagnan learns her name and tries to become acquainted with her in order to learn more of Richelieu's plans (and about his Love Interest, Constance Bonancieux, who was Queen Anne's maid and was kidnapped by the cardinal's agents).
D'Artagnan's first proper meeting with Milady involves him challenging her brother-in-law, Lord de Winter, to a duel in her honour (so he can look good both by standing up for her in a family argument and by magnanimously sparing de Winter after the inevitable drubbing) and discovering that she's currently pursuing a young aristocrat named the Count de Wardes. He soon finds out, though, that Milady goaded her brother-in-law into the fight so that d'Artagnan might kill him and net her the family inheritance (and she's none too happy that our hero spared him), and that it was Milady who had Constance kidnapped not for political reasons, but as revenge for d'Artagnan's earlier interference in her activities as the cardinal's agent, and when he attempts to advance his own suit by faking a breakup letter from de Wardes, he's unpleasantly surprised to discover that Milady now wants him, d'Artagnan, to assassinate the guy in revenge. By this point, his conscience is beginning to seriously act up about the way he's manipulated his way into her favour (helped along, it's implied, by Milady's befuddling, almost-supernatural charisma), so he confesses his deceit to her. This has the predictable effect, and so d'Artagnan has a new mortal enemy.
After this, Milady tries to assassinate d'Artagnan several times, and whilst 'tries to kill the hero' isn't generally relevant to a CM discussion, her lack of concern for collateral damage probably is. At one point, she sends him twelve bottles of poisoned wine along with a fake letter (supposedly from his Musketeer friends) encouraging him to throw a party for his comrades with them, a course of action which ends up killing one innocent man and very likely could have taken many more.
Whilst all this is going on, the siege of the rebel port of La Rochelle is proceeding in the background, and reinforcements from England led by Buckingham are expected any day. Richelieu assigns Milady to assassinate Buckingham and throw the Brits into disarray (and promises as a reward that he'll give her license to do whatever she wants to whatever enemies she so chooses), but our heroes learn of this and give Lord de Winter advance warning (whilst also alerting him to his sister-in-law's murderous intentions towards him). He arrests and imprisons her, but she works her magic on her gaoler, a good-hearted but naive young Puritan named John Felton. She seduces him, and plays on his religious prejudice against Buckingham, cooking up an elaborate sob-story about how she got her fleur-de-lys to poison his mind (long story short, she says the duke kidnapped and raped her, then branded her as a criminal in order to ensure she could never come forward about it). Felton, thus convinced, breaks her out of her prison and murders Buckingham, only for Milady to take the getaway ship ahead of schedule and abandon him to his fate.
After this, she heads for her debriefing with the cardinal's agents at the town of Bethune, and bumps into Constance, who escaped from her earlier and is hiding out at the convent there. She befriends the girl in her usual effortless manner, and considers using her as a hostage when she discovers d'Artagnan is coming to get his sweetheart. She can't make the timing work, though, so instead she tricks Constance into drinking poison as a last little 'fuck you' to d'Artagnan before making her escape.
The heroes track her down, capture her, and subject her to an informal trial with two extra witnesses - Lord de Winter, who entered France in pursuit of his escaped sister-in-law, and the executioner of Lille, who also has a history with Milady. It's the latter who relates how she really got that brand. Turns out she used to be a nun, but had ambitions beyond her station - she seduced a priest and conned him into helping her steal her church's sacred vessels (a pretty big deal in France at the time, especially when it's a priest and a nun doing it), and when she escaped prison and branding by seducing the gaoler's son, the town executioner (who was also the priest's brother, and thus doubly pissed) tracked her down and branded her himself. The priest escaped separately, and they fled the country, only for her to meet Athos, the Count de la Fere, and unceremoniously ditch her clerical lover so she could get an upgrade. The priest, freed of her influence, realised what a horrible mess he'd made of his life, returned to Lille, gave himself up, and committed suicide in his cell.
In a final detail, de Winter chips in and observes that the symptoms of the disease that killed his brother are identical to the symptoms of the poison that killed Constance - in other words, Milady murdered her husband to get her inheritance.
That's quite a wall of text, so here's a summary of her crimes in rough chronological order:
Off-screen, but described in detail by a trustworthy source:
- As a nun, broke her vows of chastity to seduce a priest into helping her rob their own church.
- Traded up for a wealthier lover, driving said priest to suicide.
- After her first husband tried to hang her and left her for dead because of her brand, she murdered her second (unknowingly bigamous) husband for his inheritance.
On-screen:
- Kidnapped a mostly-innocent woman as Revenge by Proxy for her lover, the hero, interfering in her spycraft.
- Tried to have her brother-in-law killed in a duel so she could get his inheritance.
- Ordered the assassination of a man who dared to break up with her.
- Tried to kill the hero for humiliating her and discovering her brand, with zero regard for collateral damage.
- Seduced a good man into turning traitor and murdering his commanding officer, then abandoned him to his doom.
- Killed an innocent woman as Revenge by Proxy (again) for all the trouble the hero had caused her.
How heinous is she by the standards of the story?
There are three significant villains in The Three Musketeers - Milady, Cardinal Richelieu, and the Count de Rochefort, Richelieu's other top enforcer. Neither of the other two match Milady in heinousness.
Richelieu gets significant demerit points for having this lunatic on his payroll, but many of her nastier acts (the wine incident, the killings of Constance and the first Baron de Winter, the attempted killings of de Wardes and the second Baron de Winter) are off the clock, the more unpleasant details of her jobs are mostly left to her discretion, and Richelieu has several Even Evil Has Standards moments where she's involved - he's seriously creeped out by her, and is implied to be looking for a way to get rid of her before the heroes do his job for him. Apart from that, the cardinal is ruthless but rarely cruel, a genuinely Well-Intentioned Extremist who is working to make (and is often succeeding in making) France a better, stronger place, and a Worthy Opponent who quietly admires the heroes' chivalry and gallantry.
Rochefort is even less evil - he's just a businesslike Punch-Clock Villain who got off on the wrong foot with d'Artagnan. By the end of the novel, they're good friends.
Taking the series as a whole into account, the only other villain who approaches Milady in evil is (perhaps unsurprisingly) her son, Mordaunt. His crimes are a close parallel to his mother's, but there's two factors that knock him back a bit. First, he's motivated by genuine love of his mother - when someone explains, in detail, what an awful person she was, his only response is "She was my mother." Second, he's much more tightly-focused - his evil deeds are geared at either getting revenge on his mother's killers (though, admittedly, with his mother's lack of concern for collateral damage) or at serving his career as one of Oliver Cromwell's Puritan agents. He doesn't stop off along the way to murder innocents for personal advancement or similarly petty reasons when he's off the clock.
Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
Initially, we're led to believe that Milady might have a Freudian excuse, with her husband Athos's betrayal leaving her ruthless and embittered. Then we get the executioner of Lille's story, and it's confirmed that nope, she was always that bad. The closest she gets to a real excuse is a brief interlude where the narration suggests that her evil is the natural result of a man's boundless drive and ambition inhabiting a frail, powerless woman's body (the Oxford World's Classics edition describes The Three Musketeers as 'pointedly anti-feminist' for a reason), but this is treated as a partial explanation rather than an excuse, and whilst her character concept is sexist, this doesn't translate into a sexist double-standard about her actions - she legitimately does more evil stuff with less justification than anyone else, and the only character who approaches her in evil, Mordaunt, is treated with a similar lack of sympathy by the text despite having more mitigating factors.
Her primary motivator is her limitless desire for power and wealth. She makes it clear that she doesn't share Richelieu's lofty ideals, and Lord de Winter points out that since she's already very wealthy from the first Baron de Winter's inheritance, she doesn't even need the money. Her other motivation is revenge, and whilst sometimes it's justified (as with her grudge against d'Artagnan), very often it's not. Apart from the whole de Wardes thing, it's suggested that she wants to destroy Buckingham for rejecting her advances rather than for Richelieu's political objectives.
Regarding any affection she might hold for another person, she's shown to have avidly pursued both Buckingham (in the backstory) and de Wardes (in the present), but since her response to rejection is to try to murder both of them, and since her lovers tend to meet very bad ends unless they get her before she gets them (as Felton, the first Baron de Winter, and the nameless priest can attest), it's hard to call this a disqualifying factor from monsterhood. It also appears that whilst her son loves her, there's no evidence that she loves him - Athos specifically notes that she never mentions him whilst being taken to her execution.
In terms of moral agency, she probably qualifies as 'sane enough'. She's tempestuous and sometimes irrational, but no more than might be expected from a character who's an intersection of 'villain in a melodrama' and 'woman in an Alexandre Dumas novel' (remember what I said about the sexism?). One thing about moral agency that is worth noting, though, is that her beauty and charisma are sufficiently extraordinary that they basically count as a Charles Atlas Superpower granting low-level mind-control when she decides to put them to use (that's not me exaggerating, that's literally how the story treats it, and it provides plenty of textual evidence to back it up). Even her worst enemies aren't immune - she almost convinces the heroes to let her go during her trial despite them having every reason to want her dead (and despite them having killed unhesitatingly on far less pretext several times during the book), and even twenty years later, the executioner of Lille is plagued by guilt for killing her despite recognising that he has no intellectual reason to feel this way. Regarding agency, then, this means that she has greater moral culpability for the actions of her dupes and they have less - certainly, both Felton and the priest behave much like victims of now-removed mind-control when they escape her influence (complete with My God, What Have I Done? moments).
Thoughts from the thread, then?
edited 20th Aug '14 10:18:53 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Y'know, I've been meaning to propose her for ages.
A very clear cut keep, and that's not even, to my recollection, all her deeds. Richeliu himself is a clear cut Well-Intentioned Extremist and worthy opponent to the Musketeers who genuinely and truly wants the best for France, despite how some adaptations turn him into a stereotypical prick without any redeeming qualities. Hell, when D'Artangan actually gets the better of Richeliu, he accepts it with good grace and writes him a letter of captaincy, for lord's sake.
Milady, by contrast, is just evil and Richeliu uses her a reluctant weapon, but gives her more or less free reign.
Lizzid people!
Since I have brought up The Rake a few times, I have decided to make an effortpost for him.
Who is he?
The Rake is an Eldritch Abomination from Creepypasta lore. It is known for having the appearance of a very pale man, or a dog. It also has piercing eyes.
What has he done?
Most versions of the Rake normally consist of him stalking/killing his victims. While this is generic in and of itself, the Rake is commonly depicted as being aware of what morality is, and most commonly attacks his victims for no other reason at all, other than For the Evulz. An example of this would be when he mauled a young girl to death despite the fact that the girl wasn't threatening him in the slightest. For those that the Rake did not immediately kill, he would continually stalk them for the rest of their lives, intentionally driving them insane as a result. He would also purposefully reveal himself to other people just to psychologically distress them. He's pretty much like Nyarlyanhotep from the Cthulhu Mythos in that he feels more like a human rather than a mindless monster. If I'm correct on this statement, it's also believed that he haunts his victim's dreams as well.
Heinous in-story?
The Rake is a part of a Creepypasta series of the same name. Therefore, he is the only villain in this series, and is therefore the most heinous individual that the series has.
Conclusion
I'd say he counts.
Also ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Uncle Johnny.
edited 20th Aug '14 12:32:38 PM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Milady (My Lady? What an odd name) seems like a . Mordaunt seems like a possible qualifier too (though maybe not-may not be as heinous as her).
Lizzid people!
Also I made slight changes for the Cotys writeup.
'Milady' isn't her name, it's a respectful term. The fully name Milady de Winter, is "My Lay de Winter", as she was married to de Winter. Her true name is never revealed.
A total has-been.
Lack of onscreen crimes, and Cyrus's actions were on a bigger scale (heinous Standard).
A smaller scale wouldn't be a problem if the villain were to go all out in the scale they do occupy. The consensus was that most people didn't think Ghetsis did that, though I personally will forever disagree. His worst crimes being off-screen and the nature of his crimes failing to measure up to Cyrus' or Lysandre's in terms of heinousness would be a better answer for his disqualification.
And with Cyrus, beyond the Freudian Excuse, he was held in a positive light by some of his agents, was at least deluding himself into thinking he was acting altruistically by trying to create a better reality in a new universe, and he got redeemed in two different manga, suggesting that he was never truly irredeemable to start with.
to Milady de Winter.
edited 20th Aug '14 1:09:18 PM by AnewMan
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Milady (My Lady? What an odd name) seems like a . Mordaunt seems like a possible qualifier too (though maybe not-may not be as heinous as her).
You missed the bit about him being motivated by love of his mother, then?
What's precedent ever done for us?
Doesn't even like this username
for Milady.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Saw that, but is it obvious or just a throwaway sentence. Hell, this was under Sin City:
- Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas:...
- When the Yellow Bastard mentions his father, he says, "I'd hate him if I didn't love him so."
- While not literal father and son, it's obvious that Kevin had this relationship with Cardinal Roark.
edited 20th Aug '14 1:48:46 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Milady de Winter seems like a fitter.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
He repeatedly brings it up. This is the relevant section, when he confronts Lord de Winter over his part in the execution:
There was a moment of frozen silence between these two.
"Sir," said De Winter, "I thought I had already made you aware that I am weary of this persecution; withdraw, then, or I shall call and have you turned out as you were in London. I am not your uncle, I know you not."
"My uncle," replied Mordaunt, with his harsh and bantering tone, "you are mistaken; you will not have me turned out this time as you did in London - you dare not. As for denying that I am your nephew, you will think twice about it, now that I have learned some things of which I was ignorant a year ago."
"And how does it concern me what you have learned?" said De Winter.
"Oh, it concerns you very closely, my uncle, I am sure, and you will soon be of my opinion," added he, with a smile which sent a shudder through the veins of him he thus addressed. "When I presented myself before you for the first time in London, it was to ask you what had become of my fortune; the second time it was to demand who had sullied my name; and this time I come before you to ask a question far more terrible than any other, to say to you as God said to the first murderer: `Cain, what hast thou done to thy brother Abel?' My lord, what have you done with your sister - your sister, who was my mother?"
De Winter shrank back from the fire of those scorching eyes.
"Your mother?" he said.
"Yes, my lord, my mother," replied the young man, advancing into the room until he was face to face with Lord de Winter, and crossing his arms. "I have asked the headsman of Bethune," he said, his voice hoarse and his face livid with passion and grief. "And the headsman of Bethune gave me a reply."
De Winter fell back in a chair as though struck by a thunderbolt and in vain attempted a reply.
"Yes," continued the young man; "all is now explained; with this key I open the abyss. My mother inherited an estate from her husband, you have assassinated her; my name would have secured me the paternal estate, you have deprived me of it; you have despoiled me of my fortune. I am no longer astonished that you knew me not. I am not surprised that you refused to recognize me. When a man is a robber it is hard to call him nephew whom he has impoverished; when one is a murderer, to recognize the man whom one has made an orphan."
These words produced a contrary effect to that which Mordaunt had anticipated. De Winter remembered the monster that Milady had been; he rose, dignified and calm, restraining by the severity of his look the wild glance of the young man.
"You desire to fathom this horrible secret?" said De Winter; "well, then, so be it. Know, then, what manner of woman it was for whom to-day you call me to account. That woman had, in all probability, poisoned my brother, and in order to inherit from me she was about to assassinate me in my turn. I have proof of it. What say you to that?"
"I say that she was my mother."
"She caused the unfortunate Duke of Buckingham to be stabbed by a man who was, ere that, honest, good and pure. What say you to that crime, of which I have the proof?"
"She was my mother."
"On our return to France she had a young woman who was attached to one of her opponents poisoned in the convent of the Augustines at Bethune. Will this crime persuade you of the justice of her punishment - for of all this I have the proofs?"
"She was my mother!" cried the young man, who uttered these three successive exclamations with constantly increasing force.
"At last, charged with murders, with debauchery, hated by every one and yet threatening still, like a panther thirsting for blood, she fell under the blows of men whom she had rendered desperate, though they had never done her the least injury; she met with judges whom her hideous crimes had evoked; and that executioner you saw - that executioner who you say told you everything - that executioner, if he told you everything, told you that he leaped with joy in avenging on her his brother's shame and suicide. Depraved as a girl, adulterous as a wife, an unnatural sister, homicide, poisoner, execrated by all who knew her, by every nation that had been visited by her, she died accursed by Heaven and earth."
A sob which Mordaunt could not repress burst from his throat and his livid face became suffused with blood; he clenched his fists, sweat covered his face, his hair, like Hamlet's, stood on end, and racked with fury he cried out:
"Silence, sir! she was my mother! Her crimes, I know them not; her disorders, I know them not; her vices, I know them not. But this I know, that I had a mother, that five men leagued against one woman, murdered her clandestinely by night - silently - like cowards. I know that you were one of them, my uncle, and that you cried louder than the others: `She must die.' Therefore I warn you, and listen well to my words, that they may be engraved upon your memory, never to be forgotten: this murder, which has robbed me of everything - this murder, which has deprived me of my name - this murder, which has impoverished me - this murder, which has made me corrupt, wicked, implacable - I shall summon you to account for it first and then those who were your accomplices, when I discover them!"
With hatred in his eyes, foaming at his mouth, and his fist extended, Mordaunt had advanced one more step, a threatening, terrible step, toward De Winter. The latter put his hand to his sword, and said, with the smile of a man who for thirty years has jested with death:
"Would you assassinate me, sir? Then I shall recognize you as my nephew, for you would be a worthy son of such a mother."
"No," replied Mordaunt, forcing his features and the muscles of his body to resume their usual places and be calm; "no, I shall not kill you; at least not at this moment, for without you I could not discover the others. But when I have found them, then tremble, sir. I stabbed to the heart the headsman of Bethune, without mercy or pity, and he was the least guilty of you all."
With these words the young man went out and descended the stairs with sufficient calmness to pass unobserved; then upon the lowest landing place he passed Tony, leaning over the balustrade, waiting only for a call from his master to mount to his room.
But De Winter did not call; crushed, enfeebled, he remained standing and with listening ear; then only when he had heard the step of the horse going away he fell back on a chair, saying:
"My God, I thank Thee that he knows me only."
I forget about the comics, but in the film at least the line is, "I'd love him if I didn't hate him so."
Are there any Ys fans/players here? If so, I was wondering if any of the game's many villains count. So far, the only one that seems to come the closest is Cain Fact/Darm from Origins.
Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
Lizzid people!
Please do an effort post on him.
@ ACW: Just checked it, and they reversed Junior's line in the comic as well. It's fair to cut it as misuse. As for Kevin... there's no evidence of that onscreen (at least from Kevin's side; the Cardinal is certainly shocked when Marv presents him with Kevin's head), because Kevin doesn't talk and his interactions with the Cardinal are backstory.
edited 20th Aug '14 2:39:17 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Kevin went to Cardinal Roar and Roark encouraged his cannibalistic sociopathy because he loved the 'white light' it filled him with, There's no evidence onscreen Kevin loved the Cardinal.
And yes, the line from Junior is he'd love him if he didn't hate him.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
There's also something for Even Evil Has Standards about how Word of God says Kevin is disgusted by Jr. Now, right use, but that's irrelevant to the CM discussion, right?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Hell, according to Word of God, Kevin views Junior as an abomination, so we'd have to cut him on Even Evil Has Standards if anything. Does that supposed redeeming trait appear onscreen anywhere either? Nope. EDIT: Ninja'd.
edited 20th Aug '14 3:15:01 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Though, personally, I find Jr. worse than Kevin (don't know Wallenaquist). BTW, is Would Hurt a Child the appropriate pothole for pedophile?
Wallenquist isn't nearly as depraved as a lot of people there, if only due to pure disinterest in anything but money.
Given Junior rapes and then fillets his victims, that pothole'd be appropriate
Anyway, Sin City 2 opens this weekend. Be interesting to see if Film!Ava or Film!Senator Roark count.
edited 20th Aug '14 6:02:24 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts