During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yep, gonna say that's a cut on Norman.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And this isn't an example of Depending on the Author? I'm confused either way. I guess cut.
Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 12th 2021 at 6:43:41 AM
Professor Gigachad
Okay from that info alone he does sound like an easy cut but I have a single question before downvoting him. Does Depending on the Writer apply to this or not as I know Marvel and DC can get pretty weird when it comes to that?
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The Emperor of Evil!
Lighty just stated this was consistent so I'm gonna say a sad cut for Norman Osborn.
At least for now, this could possibly change but idk.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Oct 12th 2021 at 9:47:48 AM
We try to go for "consistent characterization," how they're most consistently portrayed, or at least before retcons depending on the writer who created/innovated them.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Cut Norman. It’s a shame, but a cut’s a cut.
"No running in the halls!"
Professor Gigachad
Alright in that case cut.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Caesar
And a cut to Osborn, awful dad but one who genuinely seems to care for Harry present day as much as back in the olden days, with only smeckles of differentiations here and there.
Alright! With major thanks to Lighty for recommending me this one, time to get a Keeper from one of my favorite authors:
"What's the work?'
They Thirst is a 1981 horror novel by Robert R. McCammon. The plot...vampires in Los Angeles. We follow a large cast of characters through their everyday lives as nightmarish things begin happening in their fair city and haunting them all, as their paths intersect and the vampiric invasion of L.A. culminates in a full-blown invasion and bloodbath.
Great story, great characters, great fucking villain in current CM Conrad Vulkan (great work on him, Lighty!)...and there's one other baddie who can pass for this trope.
Who is Kobra? What has he done?
An albino biker in love with death who is introduced travelling cross-country, Kobra is quickly established as a mass murdering Serial Killer—he opens the novel by walking into a bar, intentionally antagonizing the half dozen-or-so patrons and barkeep, then whips out his trademark Mauser machine gun pistol (he's very proud of its history as a German weapon of war lmao) and executes the entire place. He gleefully recounts how this is far from his first massacre of such scale, and he's been killing his way through people for years.
Mentally contacted by vampire Prince Conrad Vulkan and answering the call purely because he knows Vulkan will bring him more killing fun, Kobra travels to Los Angeles and is turned into a vampire by Vulkan...and immediately embraces his new status, proclaiming it to be a "high" unlike any other and quickly becoming Vulkan's military commander and The Dragon to him.
Kobra orchestrates a variety of vampire attacks on Los Angeles, and when Vulkan and his mentor the Headmaster summon a mighty sandstorm that sweeps through the city, Kobra rides through on his motorbike with a gang of vampiric bikers and both picks off weak or elderly humans, and turns younger folks to vampires.
When he comes across notable characters Wes Richer and his girlfriend Solange, Kobra kidnaps Solange, and though Wes is protected by a garlic-related creation, Kobra still brutalizes him, leaves him to die, and brags his intent to "fang-fuck" her in an obvious rape allegory.
Now, eventually Wes and other major character, badass priest Father Silvera, make it Vulkan's lair in Caslte Kronsteen, where Kobra has been spending his free time feeding on innocents and squabbling with Vulkan's human familiar, Roach...the two end up capturing Wes and Silvera, Kobra gleefully torturing Silvera by stomping on his leg caught in a bear trap, and Kobra brings out a vampirized-Solange just to torment Wes, intending to force her to feed off her former lover.
Kobra also learns that another duo have infiltrated the castle, police captain Palatazin and young boy Tommy, both out to find and destroy vampires...Kobra corners them both and forces Palatazin to both stand down and swallow his crucifix whole (which goes down as painful as you'd think!) by threatening to blow Tommy's brains all over the wall with his Mauser, only holding back barely because Vulkan wants them alive to interrogate.
As Vulkan murders Wes and whisks away Silvera while Roach gets his head bonked and flees the castle to Kobra's delight, Kobra is left alone with Palatazin and Tommy. Kobra orders Solange to devour Tommy while he takes Palatazin, and though Kobra nearly succeeds in killing Palatazin, Solange fights her vampiric nature in a rage at Wes's death long enough to grab Kobra and fling them both into the nearby massive roaring fireplace.
And though Kobra barely survives the fire—but looks like a melted skeleton—he whips out his Mauser and tries to gun down Palatazin and Tommy.... apparently not learning enough his weapon to know how firearms work, the flames emanating off his body make the entire thing (literally) blow up in his face, destroying his head and killing him once and for all.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Naw, none at all. Becoming a vampire definitely is portrayed as a "even innocents will embrace the evil eventually and become zombie-like slaves to their hunger", but fighting back is possible for even a time, and Kobra was horrible way before becoming a vampire...and once he is a vampire, he's shown to still have all of his personality intact, completely knowing and aware of what he's become, what he's doing, and loving it, regarding it all as the greatest "high" ever.
Heinousness?
Besides the Big Bad vampire bosses, Kobra is the worst in the story, a mass serial killer for kicks who becomes Vulkan's highest ranking vampire agent to dole out murder and mayhem, willing to kill the child Tommy for kicks and parading vampirized Solange around in front Wes while making rapey comments about her just to fuck with them both.
Final Verdict?
Keeper!
Edited by Ravok on Oct 12th 2021 at 6:56:14 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I guess cut Norman (I do wonder if there's any other version that could possibly count)
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
A very thirsty Kobra
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I meant other's we haven't talked about before. I wonder if the one from the musical could count?
Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 12th 2021 at 7:03:46 AM
Professor Gigachad
He currently has 5 other incarnations.
Yes to Cobra and cut Norman.
As I understand it, One More Day remains intact - for now - but it's Sins Past that got retconned. And if that's the price to pay? Then Cut Norman with no regrets.
One More Day is intact, but...
Spidey and MJ are back together and Mephisto is dealt a defeat, with the reveal that his eventual downfall is at the hands of their daughter. Meanwhile? Yes to Kobra. Vampires can be zombie-like beasts, but Vulkan regained his mind long ago and allows Kobra his because Kobra is intensely useful
The Moron
Yes to Kobra
@nwot: I know you're not being serious, but just to cover it, Goblin and Norman there are separate personalities created when he snapped following the death of his wife (he was combined with Doc Ock there) - Norman loved his wife and Goblin considers the Sinister Six his replacement family (and gets genuinely upset when Spidey defeats them), so they're both no-gos. Carnage also shows up, but I forget if he actually does anything onstage, much less enough to break Goblin's standard.
It is entirely possible - go for it if you can find it
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 12th 2021 at 10:21:48 AM
Yes to Kobra.
Actually, I've always meant to check Turn off the Dark Goblin for MB... sounds like he's got the charisma and it helps that I've seen pretty much everyone call him the best thing in that godforsaken show. Plus he's Patrick Page, which generally helps.
Wild Child
Kobra and cut Norman.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Kobra.
Eh, looks like Norman is no longer eligible to be locked up.
Lighty: How's that Joe Quesada EP coming along?
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 12th 2021 at 10:25:22 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Best Smile
Boss, Malachai, Nadine, Karl, Doppelganger, Naga, Kobra.
Abstain on Mireau.
Cut Goblin.
I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine
Cut SCOPES then
Boss, Malachai, Nadine, Schilling, Wolfgang, Naga and Kobra
Keep Mireau
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Looger
Cut SCOPES, Alexei and Norman
Rejected UAC Marine
to Kobra, and a pretty unfortunate cut for Norman
Looks like we should find another quote for Monster.Spider Man now, too
That being said, I have no source.
Professor Gigachad
We have another quote in the page
So we can just use that.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Three cuts in one day. What are the odds.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Korba.
Cut Goblin.
Edited by Beast on Oct 12th 2021 at 8:30:57 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Also, with the Marvel keeps being discussed....it's time to talk the cut.
Here it is: Norman Osborn's gotta go. This is no longer tenable to keep him. In the original run of Spidey with the Goblin, the split personalities are distinct, but Norman genuinely and truly loves Harry...upon returning from the dead, Norman is much nastier himself, his personality merging with the Goblin. BUT?
Norman still cares about Harry, albeit in a twisted sense...but it's there. It's not until Dark Reign where Norman just steps into pure evil and tries to have Harry killed...several issues?
This is FIRMLY at odds with his usual characterization and played later as the Goblin serum genuinely damaging his mind. Ever since, he maintains a controlling care for Harry, but it's still there. But the latest arc?
Okay...Mephisto is the villain, One More Day is finally taken care of. Remember Norman slept with Gwen Stacy to have kids? Fake memories, they're clones...and Harry Osborn never really came back from the dead, being a clone who embraces his role as Harry...
The thing is, the clone dies saving Norman who breaks down in tears, calling Harry his "baby boy" and how he never needed any other children but him. Norman is a bad man. Period. Norman is a villain, but...
His love for Harry has been consistent across decades now. This isn't just a "sudden redeeming quality" or "mass retcon" like Apocalypse or Sabretooth. This is baked in from the start with only one story removing it.
He's gotta go. A guy who ends a major arc sobbing over his son's dead body?