During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Wild Child
Regarding Batman: The Long Halloween, I'm gonna hold off discussion on that film until Part Two comes out.
Why so serious?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh for heaven's sake, just release both parts at once you greedy ****
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Seems like a good idea.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Go for it.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Yuji
I've just gotten the The Silver Case games on Switch, so I'll let y'all know if anybody keeps from these old gems.
But now it's time for my second Seraphic Blue candidate.
Who Is He?
Georg Roseburg is the CEO of Roseburg Enterprises (aka ROBIN), the ultimate ruler of the Ground, and Lake’s biological grandfather.
What has he done?
Once the decent owner of a pharmacy with a loving family, when Georg developed a new tranquilizer drug that made him tons of money and got the attention of the Fezzite government for its life saving effects, he was promoted to a high government rank, which allowed him to oversee the Ground as the government’s Human representative.
But this led him to become corrupted by greed and power as he continued making drugs for Fezzite. For starters, Georg would start to value his daughter Syria as his property, refusing to allow her any sort of outside love because she is his and his alone. He refused to let her out of his mansion, and when she escaped with Ewan’s help and lost her virginity to him, that’s when Georg lost it. With his precious daughter now deflowered, when he found her back home pregnant, he threatened to kick her in the stomach if she didn’t leave, kicking her out of his mansion penniless, while ordering his men to kill Ewan for “tainting” his daughter. This actually results in Syria dying from childbirth, due to being homeless and not receiving proper medicine after giving birth to Lake.
Georg is also the head of an assassin organization called the Black Leos, hired by him to take out anybody who stands in his way, which is how he’s kept his position up top. After one of his men not only fails to kill Lake and Vene, but also lost his Black Leos pin, Georg has him eaten alive by his Neo-Devils. Partnering with Ende, a psychopathic Gaia Cancer working for Er, Georg heads to Mandoza to destroy the Gaia tree, which would mean the destruction of the planet. Teaming up with Ende, Roseburg sicks his Virginie war android on Lake, Vene, and Ewan, and doesn’t even care when Ende throws his bodyguards off the cliff before his fight against them.
But ultimately, Georg wants more. While he’s already the ruler of the Ground, he wants to rule the entirety of Gaia, so he sets out to conquer Fezzite. To do so, Georg uses Ende to remove the Celestial Border with the help of the Gaia Cancers so that he can expose Fezzite to the people of the Ground and invade the land above (it’s essentially the equivalent of exposing Heaven to the people of Earth). By using his trust amongst the public to paint the people of Fezzite as oppressors who despise humans, Georg is able to recruit plenty of people for his army, where he’ll use them to take over Fezzite and then immediately dispose of them all once he’s the land’s new ruler.
This leads to the War of Liberation, the conflict between the Fezzite and the Ground, Heaven and Earth. To further motivate his army, Georg tricks the OHG (a group against the Gaia Cancers, but separate from the CGMC) into attacking his skyscraper HQ, filming the entire thing and showing it to his followers during a rally. Georg manipulates his followers into believing that the Fezzite view themselves as superior to humans, and that they are willing to attack his base out of racism. The rally’s a success, and our heroes have once again failed.
Sending his secret airships to Fezzite, Georg hides a living bomb inside one of them, hoping to detonate it over Fezzite and cripple its chances of success, while willing to have practically his entire army of volunteers killed in the process. And the soldiers inside said airship have no clue they’re about to be killed in a massive explosion, since Georg only saw them as sacrificial pawns.
Despite our heroes stopping the bomb and saving the army’s lives, it was all revealed to be a ploy. See, Georg isn’t concerned with the amount of angry soldiers that now want his head. To him, he’ll just pass their anger off as Fezzite propaganda, a ploy created by the enemy, since a lot of humans don’t know much about Fezzite compared to him. Even better, the Fezzite army will be on the lookout for potential sky attacks while his force will sneak up from behind. And with the attention diverted away from his actual plan, Georg sends his Neo-Devils out to destroy the Fezzite gardens, which will result in the death of every Sera-Human baby.
After that fails, Darmstadt, Georg’s headquarters, is chosen by Fezzite Chairman Morgan Douglas as their battleground for his upcoming Human genocide plan. Georg, upon hearing this news from Ende (who’s also working with Morgan to prolong the war), decides to hightail it out of there and take over Fezzite while they’re busy turning his city into a bloodbath, figuring that his soldiers can take care of everything while he’s away. The result is a mass of casualties.
But it’s revealed that his ultimate goal is to use Vene’s spirit in order to resurrect Syria, since Vene is technically a reincarnation of her (her angel form if you will) and has her soul inside of her. Remember Virginie? She’s actually an android based on his daughter. Well, the 28th version, with the previous 27 eaten by Neo-Devils for being too imperfect. Virginie, named after Georg’s desire for Syria to have remained a virgin, is in Georg’s eyes, the perfect version of Syria.
After a bit, Georg reveals final trump card: the LAJ, a flying saucer that he’s been secretly building for over seven years. He plans to use the saucer’s canon, the Iron Hammer, to destroy the Fezzite capital from below the continent. Knowing full well that activating the LAJ will destroy the city of Juwess, since it was built underneath it, Georg forbids his operator from staging an evacuation amongst the city’s populace, threatening to drown him and have carnivorous fish devour him if he doesn't do what he’s told. After the LAJ is launched and Juwess is destroyed, Georg sends some troops to attack Fezzite to distract them from the Iron Hammer’s laser blast. But that fails due to an act of sabotage. When he eventually has Vene in his grasp, he disowns Virginie, since she won’t be compatible with Syria’s soul.
When he finds Lake having come to take him on himself, he requests Ende to turn him into a Gaia Cancer, Gertraud, in order to kill him. But he’s soon defeated by Virginie and the gang when they arrive just in time. As he lays dying, he requests Ende to give him more power, but Ende instead leaves him to die. The heroes leave on their airship and all is right with the world… until Georg returns, bigger than ever, with the intent to take everybody on the airship with him. This leads to Lake, who had been suicidal this entire time, to sacrifice himself to protect Vene, killing Georg at the cost of his own life.
Redeeming Qualities?
Similar to Siegbert, every ounce of a potential redeeming quality within Georg is immediately negated.
While his goal is to resurrect his daughter Syria, it’s not because he loves her. He only loves his version of her, hence why Virginie was made.
Speaking of which, he delivers Virginie’s disownment in a gentlemanly manner while telling her that she’s allowed her to do whatever she wants with her freedom. It’s probably the only form of kindness he displays, but at the same time, he thinks that disowning someone who served by his side is a better sentencing than death. And even at the end of the day, Georg still sees her as an outdated piece of junk that will eventually come crawling back to him, and is flabbergasted she would join Vene and company in their battle against him.
Heinousness?
While Georg is ultimately a pawn within the Kursk family's and Ende’s plan to end the world, Georg still stands out for his power-hungry ambitions, goals of complete world domination, his want to declare war against Fezzite in the first place out of nothing but selfish pride, and his horrific mistreatment of not only the lives of innocents, but also the lives of his family as well.
Conclusion
Another easy keep I feel.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Jul 6th 2021 at 9:39:41 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Professor Gigachad
I looked through a bunch of Vilgax images and nothing stood out.
Roseburg
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 6th 2021 at 9:46:14 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Goku Black
Roseburg
Roseburg
Rose
Ben 10 quote, after all it illustrates the single most heinous thing that ever occurred in that show.
I'll have a look for images too.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 6th 2021 at 9:49:41 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Roseburg.
ACW: Here I trimmed it as much as I can.
- The Legend of Korra: Unalaq is Korra's Evil Uncle, the leader of the Northern Water Tribe, and one of the primary villains of Book 2. Years ago, Unalaq, jealous of his older brother, Tonraq, had him exiled from his home tribe after framing him as responsible for the destruction the Dark Spirits inflicted on their tribe. Later trying to have Avatar Korra, a child at the time, kidnapped, Unalaq abandoned his partners to their fates when the plan failed. When the Dark Spirits return, Unalaq takes control of the Southern Water Tribe from Tonraq and has anyone who may oppose him disposed of, triggering a war between the water tribes. Attempting to open a spirit portal, Unalaq realizes only the Avatar can open the portals, threatens to destroy the soul of Jinoral, to force Korra to assist him, then tries to condemn Jinora to the Fog of Lost Souls and to murder Korra even after she opened the portal. Unalaq later assaults the Southern Water Tribe; beats down Tonraq, sparing his life solely so he can see Unalaq win; then frees Vaatu, the spirit of darkness and chaos, with whom he has been partnered with the entire season, fuses with him into a Dark Avatar, and tears the spirit of light and order, Raava, out of Korra and attempts to obliterate her. Unalaq then attacks Republic City and announces his plans to rule over humanity after destroying all world order.
Someone else can try if this is not enough.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 6th 2021 at 11:51:24 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Roseberg. Looks like I was right about him being a candidate. Next up is Douglas?
A total has-been.
Yuji, Roseburg, Belfast leader, Akunin leader, Magnitude, Siegbert and Master Mage.
OK, so...I feel now is as good a time as ever to bring this to attention. Currently on Umineko: When They Cry, we have this entry:
- Complete Monster: Bernkastel, the Witch of Miracles, reveals herself as a cruel sadist over the course of the story. Embracing her role as Big Bad in the fourth arc, Bernkastel set up Ange Ushiromiya to have a hell of a life in order to manipulate her as a pawn later on before deciding Ange is of no further use and leaving her to turn into shredded meat. In the "game" on Rokkenjima island, Bernkastel introduces a pawn named Erika Furudo to mentally torment the mentally fragile Natsuhi by accusing her of being the murderer. She helps the elimination of the Golden Witch Beatrice to seize control of the game and cement the protagonist, Battler, in a forced role of villain. Bernkastel's only real pleasure in life remains the suffering of others, and it's something she creates with endless amusement.
Putting aside that this seems like a restructured old writeup based on what was there on the page likely well before the series concluded, the reason I bring this up is because while Bernkastel is without question heinous enough (like, there are a lot of nasty and screwed up characters in Umineko who do truly horrific things, but Bernkastel is at the top of the heinousness heap for sure), I'm not sure she passes the "no mitigating qualities" standard. Mainly three details that this entry overlooks:
- Much like Dark Danny, there are agency issues at play. Boredom is said to be literally like toxin to Witches; if left bored for too long by not screwing with anyone or anything else, it will kill them. As a Witch, Bernkastel does what is in her nature to do. While the opposing argument would be that this doesn't mean she lacks personal agency since other Witches, regardless of how cruel, don't go about their evil deeds as wantonly sadistic and petty as she is, it should be noted that Bernkastel is a unique case due to being the aggregation of all the pain, agony, despair, and suffering of all the Rika Furudes of all discarded Higurashi timelines in which she ended up tortured to death. If she sits around in boredom for even a second, Bernkastel's mind goes to all the memories of all of these timelines and all the pain she endured, and it's too much for her to stand. Being literally made from anguish, her very existence is pained, so she requires herself to keep her mind and energy occupied by tormenting others 'cause her amusement at their suffering distracts her from her own, and even then it's not a 24/7 thing since the Tea Parties in the Meta World purgatory shows she's capable of being civil with the other Witches, even if still unkind and sociopathic due to how inherently messed up she is.
- It's stressed multiple times that she and Lambdadelta do indeed love each other. Her love for Lambda isn't quite as pure and sincere as Lambda's for her since Bern is more of a sociopath who treats others as though they were merely her possessions and playthings (she even says at one point that she "has no friends" otherwise), but the two Witches being horrible to each other, making threats to each other, screwing one another over and even engaging in one's sadistic torture of the other is very much mutual. Even after Lambda turns against Bern and Bern tries to violently kill Lambda in the Golden Land, the two are back on friendly terms with each other in the last Tea Party, with Lambda being Easily Forgiven by Bern and them talking to each other as lovers (as in, Bern states outright to Lambda "You're the only one I love", Lambda refers to them as "a pair of lovers", and they all but say they are always going to love each other no matter what "game" they take on next), making this possibly a genuine Pet the Dog quality. And speaking of...
- In that last Tea Party segment, which is largely Played for Laughs just like all the other Tea Party segments between the Witches, one of Bern and Lambda's final exchanges are this:
I had been considering waiting for after the currently airing Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni: Sotsu series had finished since it's been shaping up to be an origin story for Bern and Lambda that might disqualify Bern anyway. But I felt I wanted to bring it up now and leave it to the thread when they want to engage in the "Cut or Keep" discussion regarding this character. So to borrow Erika Furudo's little Catchphrase, "What do you think, everyone?"
Yuji Katsuura and Georg Roseburg.
Professor Gigachad
That seems to be a pretty clear cut, maybe I could change my mind, but I would need to hear a good argument.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Georg.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Roseburg
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Thoughts on my Unalaq trim?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Still a bit long, but definitely better.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
Also, could you guys not ignore Bernkastel's cut proposal the arguments brought up are really good and something that needs to be addressed.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Someone else can try to trim it more if they want.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yeah, I'm good with a cut for Bernkastel
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Bernkastel.
Lighty I think you are the one who did Unalaq. Any thoughts on my trim?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Odd, I brought her up a while back, and everyone seemed okay with her keeping. Granted, the “boredom is literally toxic” aspect is something that I did not mention (because the series plot is so complicated that I can’t keep everything straight) but I was sorta iffy on her keeping.
Kinda sad that between this and Black Battler, this leaves Umineko with no keepers, but what can you do when the witches’ morality is so screwed up.
Edited by MasterN on Jul 6th 2021 at 10:07:23 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Ben 10
I like the quote.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 6th 2021 at 9:22:45 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes