During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Who is the Hylden Lord? I can't remember any previous discussion about this, other than that he had a subverted Freudian Excuse.
@ HT: His born again Christian run was established to be the same character, and he did a one-off appearance earlier this year where he was a good guy again, so that pretty much means he violates the "no redemption" ruling.
So as it stands I'm giving him a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
and saying that only Ox Baker counts as a Pro Wrestling Complete Monster, as that character retired as a monster and didn't get redeemed. I'd go one further and say that no wrestling characters can be considered until they have most definitively retired or have given sufficient evidence that they won't be pulling a Heel–Face Turn anytime soon.
EDIT: Also, the missing video game subpages are still missing. Is anyone following up with the mods on that one?
edited 9th May '14 1:33:36 AM by Shaoken
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, I took care of the games. Should be taken care of soon (I hope). ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
This weekend hopefully.
And man, I see what you're saying about Jake, but cutting him just seems wrong somehow 
edited 9th May '14 7:40:59 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Hylden Lord is a villain from the Legacy Of Kain games who spans multiple entries in the saga (in fact, he's even multiple characters before it's revealed they're all the same guy late in the series)...we're discussing him now for a few reasons as a CM, given he's a genocidal nutjob.
A short list of his crimes:
- Attempted to wipe out all non-Hylden life on Nosgoth with a literal genocide machine. Was stopped and imprisoned in another dimension by the Ancient Vampires.
- Murdering Ariel and framing her lover for it, which directly kicks start the whole mess to begin with.
- Corrupts Ariel's lover into madness, which in turn corrupts the rest of the Guardians and transforms Nosgoth into hell on earth.
- Masquerades as the leader of the Sarafan, a holy order of knights founded to protect humans from the various threats of Nosgoth, Vampires included. Under him, the Sarafan become A Nazi by Any Other Name, routinely oppressing, deceiving and outright murdering the people they're supposed to be protecting.
- Captures the Noble Demon Vampire Janos Uldran and tortures him repeatedly in order to use his life force to power the genocide machine.
- When Kain rescues Janos, the Hylden Lord decides to use Human Resources to power his machine.
- Finally, he manipulates Uma into betraying Kain and having the Nexus Stone, his only weakness, delivered right to him. After Kain is forced to kill Uma, the Lord mocks him over it.
I'm not sure what he does in Deception, but I do know he does make an appearance or two in it, so he likely has even more crimes under his belt by the end.
Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wow, that guy almost sounds WORSE than the Elder God.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Deception just ties it together. It's revealed he's the mastermind behind the demon worshiping cults in Nosgoth and actually planned on a great deal so he could possess Janos.
The tiny issue is...the Hylden were actually the victims in the original war when the then mortal vampires embarked on a genocidal crusade against them...the vampires were servants to the Elder God, whose appetite depends on the souls movement on the Wheel of Fate...as immortals, the Hylden were exempt from it. The EG didn't like that. As a sidenote, NOBODY who worships the EG knows its true nature...they think it's a genuine deity, not a hungry parasite.
the war dragged on for a long time, until the Hylden general took control and masterminded the plan not only to annihilate the vampries, but the humans they loved and protected...so yeah, kind of an Evil Versus Evil thing, but the Hylden lord took it to even greater extremes...even his own people blanched at that level of monstrosity. The Hylden were sealed away into a hell dimension by the vampires, but struck back and cursed the vampires with two of the worst things they could imagine: immortality and the blood thirst. The Elder God got bored of the vamps instantly from that, prompting the majority of the species to commit suicide in despair...the remaining vampires tried to maintain the seal on the hylden as the Hylden worked their way back.
When the Hylden Lord is back...well, yeah. However, he's never portrayed as a victim...he's just a power-hungry, genocidal, racist tyrant. The closest he ever gets to sympathy is when he yells at Janos to see what he has mutated into. Janos says it's nothing more than a reflection of their twisted souls...granted, he's not exactly Mr. unbiased, but still. Another fact is how he treats any Hylden who tries to stand up to him...the Architect of the thing he was using for the genocide got locked away in prison to suffer forever...the Seer, a Hylden who's a genuinely good person, is hunted by him and he tries to kill her with no remorse.
However, one crime there is wrong: Una's betrayal was ENTIRELY due to her own belief that Kain couldn't be trusted with absolute power and he'd turn on the vampires. When Kain confronts the Hylden Lord, the guy genuinely has no idea who Una is (Kain kills Una simply out of his pride and ego, and passes the buck to the Hylden Lord)
edited 9th May '14 12:06:48 PM by Lightysnake
You Give Me Fever
I'm not advocating for Havok to be on the trope page itself, a forced face turn is still a face turn, just her stint in WSU, as at this point nothing she does outside of the company will affect any story lines she was apart of in it. I already mentioned she tried to kill the baby face champion at least twice. If you want an in depth breakdown, that will have to come later. I'm not an avid follower of the promotion and as such do not have its chronology nor the exact details committed to memory.
For comparison, I would not call AJ Styles The Ace on the Ring of Honor page, because he was far from it but would on the TNA page, because he was, being a near constant in the main event and in some high profile feud or title run if he was not up until his departure from the company which was a massive screw job to keep him looking strong. Whatever AJ's contrasting status in Ring Of Honor was, TNA never acknowledged it and definitely never touches on the jobs he did on WWE's B shows. Similarly, Jessicka Havok has never been anything other than a villain with no redeeming qualities in WSU and likely never will be, just like they ignored that bit about her being sidelined by a hit and run in Shine, or the fact Shimmer had her teaming with Neveah while CZW had the two of them feuding.
edited 9th May '14 12:21:18 PM by IndirectActiveTransport
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
I have zero interest in wrestling, so I have no horse in this race, but what we're trying to tell you is you can't have an example for CM (or anything) that's just a name. you need to describe their deeds and what makes them a CM
You Give Me Fever
Okay, if I just ad a little elaboration it can be left on the WSU page then?
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, here's some info on Alistair Crane. Anyone wanna attempt a better writeup? I'm not good at writeups
As for Havok, how does she compare to Baker, whom (in Kayfabe) killed people.
edited 9th May '14 12:26:18 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Relax, we'll get to it.
If you can provide us her deeds, do a writeup and let us vote on it, then yes. but we have to approve it
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So is Jake Roberts a cut then?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So someone just added a Complete Monster entry to a page without consulting the forum.
Akira from selector infected WIXOSS is a definite no at this point in time anyway. She's a dick, but the show is still ongoing and she's still alive last we saw.
Watch Akuma No Riddle, Sterok?
Yes. I don't see that show having anyone qualify unless Takechi makes a reappearance out of nowhere.
Your preferences are not everyone else's preferences.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
The Hylden Lord sounds a lot like Manfroy in that his followers were genuinely wronged, but he's just using their anger at that wrong to gain power for himself. Yhwach is also similar, but not on the list yet.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
It's a little strange...one CAN pity the Hylden, but it might be they were evil to begin with and the vampires attacked for the wrong reasons.
Don't think Takechi counts, Sterok?
edited 9th May '14 7:26:25 PM by Lightysnake
Takechi's only on-screen deed is trying to kill Haru (albeit in a torturous manner). In a show where basically everyone is trying to do that. Maybe if she got more flashbacks in her backstory, but she really didn't do enough to pass the relative standard.
Your preferences are not everyone else's preferences.
Some of her murders were shown in flashback, as I recall...the gory aftermath at any rate.
Pictures of the aftermath yeah. Still really stretching the definition of on-screen. Anyway, there's still the chance Isuke, Hanabusa, or Nio could turn out worse, so hold off until the show ends.
Your preferences are not everyone else's preferences.
I'd like to talk about Oz. Its YMMV tab used to have several Complete Monster ZC Es and I understand why they were cut. But among them, there are a couple of characters that might qualify.
The first character to come to mind for most people would be Big Bad Vern Schillinger. His rap sheet is nothing to scoff at: he's the head of a Neo-Nazi gang; he rapes and tortures other inmates to ensure their submission to him; he arranges various murders, including his own son (though he seemed to sincerely, if wrongly, see that as a Mercy Kill, as his son was incarcerated and drug-addicted) and the crucifixion of another inmate. However, I'd say there are factors that disqualify him. He volunteers in an alliance to prevent the murder of Augustus Hill. The crime that landed him in prison - a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown on a drug dealer who was selling to his sons - was framed as an act of love. Also, he has at least a bit of a Freudian Excuse in that his father was abusive and taught him the hateful ideology he now holds to.
But there are two characters with heinous deeds and no redeeming qualities: Timmy Kirk and Claire Howell.
Kirk is seen in a flashback throwing a living baby (possibly his own) into a rat-infested dumpster. As you'd expect, child murder is seen as heinous by most of the other inmates. He also attempts the murder of a rival by sealing him in a wall; and, in response to a minor slight by the prison chaplain, has the man's church burned down in hopes of killing him. He seems to be a strange example of Heel–Face Revolving Door, but it's eventually revealed that all of his religious conversions were a sham to curry favor.
Howell is an evil warden and Serial Rapist, a rare female example whose deeds are recognised as heinous rather than given the double-standard treatment. We're given only a small taste of the extent of her cruelty when she makes a false sexual harassment claim against her employer, after he refuses to continue sleeping with her. Whereas the inmates rape each other to prove dominance and prevent a similar fate for themselves, she does so purely for sadistic pleasure, reveling in the fact that her victims cannot fight back. She also kills an inmate by electrocution, hoping to appease Ryan O'Reilly so her sexual abuse of him can continue without incident. She later cuts the Achilles tendons of another inmate who had been troublesome to her allies. The closest thing to a redeeming feature she has is that she decided not to have an abortion after she gets pregnant from one of the rapes she committed, but she cites purely religious motives rather than maternal ones.
I'll provide more detail if necessary.
edited 9th May '14 11:03:11 PM by BigglesTh9
Oh, and one more from Oz: William Cudney.
He's a minor character who soon ends up a case of We Hardly Knew Ye. But he committed one of the nastiest crimes of the series: he kills a little boy to get back at his father, a doctor who performed an abortion on his wife. It's a clear Moral Event Horizon, the worst sort of Revenge by Proxy. I'm just not sure whether one deed is enough when he's surrounded by serial murderers and rapists.
Paul Sarone..on the fence. Leaning yea, though.
For the Hylden Lord...I'm gonna lean yes as well. Can we discuss that more?