SugarWiki, DarthWiki and YMMV - policy statement contradiction

Bringing this one here after some conversation within the mod team:

• Administrivia.What Goes Where On The Wiki states that some YMMV tropes exist on Darth or Sugar wiki.
• Pages like SugarWiki.Moment Of Awesome have the YMMV banner

...but DarthWiki.This Exists and SugarWiki.Sweet Exists both directly state that:

All of these statements seem to have been there for many years.
Does anyone know if/where there's a previous policy decision on this? I've had a quick search, but couldn't find one - and the Sweet and Darth page statements were added without edit reason by a troper who's no longer here.
If a decision's already been made, we'll tidy up the pages to reflect it. If not, we may want a Crowner to formalise it now.

Reminds me I've asked something similar before.

Anyway, I'd rather SW and SW items automatically enforce to go to own subpages. If they are fine in YMMV, maybe instead they shouldn't be in SW/DW spaces in the first place.

Don't think it's strongly enforced by anything but that What Goes Where on the Wiki statement.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 9th 2024 at 10:00:46 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Yeah, I was always under the impression that SW and DW weren't suppose to go on YMMV/ pages at all. I would be interested to see what SW/DW pages are on YMMV/ pages, because that just seems incorrect.

EDIT: I guess I'm more curious about Darth, because already I see some SW pages have the YMMV banner on top like And the Fandom Rejoiced.

Edited by Arctimon on Jan 9th 2024 at 2:16:58 PM

My Fanfiction.net Page My DeviantArt Page

You can open both YMMV indexes and Ctrl+F SugarWiki and DarthWiki.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I've seen more enforcement of this with Darth Wiki, since that's generally more used for negative tropes.

Assuming that there's no official policy decision behind the supposed rule, I'd rather handle this on a page-to-page basis. Take Sugar Wiki, for example. Some pages, like And the Fandom Rejoiced and Development Heaven, understandably shouldn't go on YMMV, given that they're much more unregulated and gushing-focused than some other pages. However, Sugar Wiki also encapsulates Funny Moments, Heartwarming Moments, Most Wonderful Sound, Visual Effects of Awesome, etc.—all of which I'm used to seeing on YMMV pages, and usually avoid being overly-gushy.

Darth Wiki, as mentioned above, seems to have virtually nothing under it commonly appear on YMMV pages; not only is it more intensely negative than Sugar Wiki is positive, a lot of "negative" YMMV items (Designated Hero, The Scrappy, Ass Pull) aren't under Darth Wiki. (To my surprise, Nightmare Fuel also isn't on Darth.)

Edited by jandn2014 on Jan 9th 2024 at 2:53:29 PM

back lol

My only issue in the past was that enforcing this strictly meant that specific moments pages (Heartwarming, Funny, and Awesome) were always stuck on separate pages while the others (NF, TJ, Shocking) weren't. That's not an issue now that we've realized moments are always to get separate pages regardless of if they're in a subwiki or not, so I no longer have any qualms about enforcing this more strictly.

In fact I've always found it weird that some items are on both Sugar/Darth and a YMMV index. It feels like it should be one or the other.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

We still have Moments that have the 'this is YMMV' banner on their 'trope' page, though. We should probably sort that out, or at least add something prominent to the intro to confirm they must always be on their own page.

There are still plenty of them listed on YMMV, and I'm sure I've added some myself before running into this rule.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 9th 2024 at 10:49:02 AM

...Well, yeah. Those are the non-Sugar Wiki ones I alluded to. This has more to do with Administrivia.What Goes Where On The Wiki than any sort of subwiki classifications.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

True, but we've still got a banner at the top of Moment of Awesome that says it belongs on YMMV. Nothing in the page intro says it always goes on its own page.

That's going to confuse people.

That's because it's on YMMV, which as I mentioned is needlessly confusing. It's definitely an issue but not one specific to the moments.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Our take: the "file certain items under Sugar Wiki because they're clearly gushing" decision (especially older items like the Moments) and the "Sugar Wiki items shouldn't be wicked on YMMV because it's the counterpart to Darth Wiki" decision seem like they were made without communication.

Our first intuition is to solidify the "don't wick Sugar" decision and roll back some parts of the "these items are Sugar" decision.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

Which items are Sugar that shouldn't be?

Also I'll list all for convenience.

• Awesome Music
• Development Heaven
• Most Wonderful Sound
• So Cool, It's Awesome
• Visual Effects of Awesome
• And the Fandom Rejoiced
• Awesome Art
• Funny Moments
• Heartwarming Moments
• He Really Can Act
• Moment of Awesome
• Needs More Love
• No Problem with Licensed Games
• So Short, It Rocks
• Rule of Sean Connery
• Superlative Dubbing

Also I was convinced Nightmare Fuel is from DW but apparently no Darth pages are in YMMV?

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Awesome Music, Most Wonderful Sound, Visual Effects of Awesome, Awesome Art, Funny Moments, Heartwarming Moments, He Really Can Act, Moment of Awesome, No Problem with Licensed Games, and Sweet Dreams Fuel (which you didn’t list) are the ones I see on YMMV the most, and which seem to avoid gushing the most.

Superlative Dubbing is a bit of a weird case, as there’s quite a few examples on YMMV pages, and from a quick check, those seem to be less gush-y than the on-page examples.

(Side note: He Really Can Act seems to be sometimes misused in the context of good acting from already-praised actors, which makes me think we may be missing an “Awesome Acting” item.

back lol

Aren't specific items like Awesome Music "allowed" by default on the YMMV tab first if there are only few examples yet? It seems like tropers only create a separate Awesome Music tab if the examples are too many to count or if they take up a significant portion of the page.

I'll guess I have to dig this up if I have more time... but on the edit histories of some YMMV tabs that I follow, there was indeed a time where I saw another troper delete Awesome Music examples citing "Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki do not go on main or YMMV pages". Benefit of the doubt simply says they're just following a rule from this page, but IIRC, the examples weren't moved to a separate Awesome Music tab, they were just completely cut.

This is yet one of those cases where I sometimes question the clean-up efforts of other tropers... simply because the Sugar Wiki "rules" themselves may have loopholes/inconsistencies. I would've PM'd that troper to ask if their edit reason made sense, considering how SugarWiki.Awesome Music is listed on thousands of YMMV pages for a very long time...

With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation

Nope, both because the rule is all-consuming, and because Awesome Music is technically a "moment" and thus warrants a separate page anyway. Now, if you're asking less about the rules and more about how people actually act, you'd be right; it's just that this idea is kind of incorrect. (But deleting the examples was also incorrect)

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 10th 2024 at 12:37:53 PM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

IMO, certain Moments pages being on Sugar Wiki or Darth Wiki isn't an issue with the What Goes Where on the Wiki policy or SW or DW areas but rather an issue with those individual pages — so I find the "Please note: Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki do not go..." part unproblematic. If people have issue with, say, Heartwarming Moments not being allowed on YMMV/, a decision should be made on whether Heartwarming Moments is a Sugar Wiki item.

I would assume since Heartwarming houses individual editors' opinions (it's not that a significant portion of the audience have to agree that every item is heartwarming like other YMMV things require), it belongs only on Sugar.

You're correct that Nightmare Fuel isn't on Darth. It's decorated like pages on it.