Countries, and other possible unncessary shoehorns on Four Temperament Ensemble

ATT links: Here and HERE

I have already discussed these at the Ensembles Cleanup and the Trope Description Improvement drive. They want me to make a trope talk to this thread.

In short, I am a bit concerned about adding countries to Four-Temperament Ensemble, especially that the "Cities in the Philippines" is just cities in Manila and not the rest of the country. I see them as shoehorning, and bordering on National Stereotypes, when all countries have every temperament.

Now they're adding class cliques and music genres, and other things not backed by, for the lack of a better word, research. Or at least shoving modern pop-culture references instead of the typical esoteric and pseudoscientific thingamajigs.

I'm concerned that the page will become too long with these unchecked shoehorns.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Sep 1st 2023 at 8:34:51 PM

Let's try this again.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Sep 1st 2023 at 4:07:48 PM

Paging ~Amonimus ~amathieu13 ~Noaqiyeum ~Wyldchyld ~Ultimatum for helping me start this discourse.

Paging ~Gray Jedi 1995 ~The Generic Primate ~mizugameza ~Prickly Clypeasteroid ~Bronost on your reasoning on adding countries bordering on National Stereotypes and other pop culture elements on an otherwise pseudoscience and why or why not should we keep these.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Sep 1st 2023 at 4:08:54 PM

.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Sep 1st 2023 at 4:08:59 PM

Ensembles by definition are groups of characters, so groups of non-characters should be misuse.

My reasoning is to delete the national stereotypes, since well, they are stereotypes, but keep the class cliques, due to class cliques, while stereotypical, are technically character archetypes.

For ease of reference, the folder for each humour is laid out like this:

This is absurd. A few of these are at least connected by being similar methods of taxonomising personality. Many of them are not groups of four. Many of them are not even proper groups of anything, personality-related or not. Most have no elaboration, sometimes to the point of becoming completely incomprehensible (the one I labelled "gender", for instance, actually reads things like "Male/Female: Epsilon", which fails to even identify the poorly-defined nonsense it's referring to).

As I said in TDID, I'd cut everything but these, at most:

• Description
  • Key strengths
  • Key weaknesses
  • Expressive/responsive
  • DISC and Myers-Briggs
  • Four-Philosophy Ensemble
  • Personality Blood Types

...and those last four should only stay if someone's willing to write explanations for them, because I have no idea what response delay or duration means.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Sep 1st 2023 at 10:20:40 AM

Wait, isn't Enneagram a way to measure personality?

Yes, but also it has nine types, so it's obviously not isomorphic to a personality schema with only four.

I shared my thoughts in the trope description improvement drive, but i'll condense both posts here:

Edited by amathieu13 on Sep 1st 2023 at 8:19:43 AM

Seems like it, but I say keep the classical elements and the temperaments, as they're associated with those.

Hmmm...the music types are a bit of a shoehorn tbh. Liking certain genres is more preference than anything of human psychology.

I mean, I am on the side of moving these other information to the Analysis page, while also agreeing that Ensebles are characters and not groups.

And the Countries and Cliques should be cut. Especially the "Cities in the PhilippinesManila", coming from me, a Filipino not hailing from Manila.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Sep 2nd 2023 at 5:13:17 PM

I think all this is ridiculous and changes the trope into random speculation and the kind of "fan associations" that we don't let tropes like Shout-Out or Expy engage in. At this point, it's not even analysis because analysis is supposed to be how the trope is actually used, and not "what random associations did someone think of today to speculate about".

There is a trope that is used in works, and well-studied analysis of how this has been used in real life for both medicine and storytelling. That's the trope and that's the analysis. Everything else needs to go. The the trope needs to be reworded from scratch to establish exactly what the trope is and what the humours actually represent, and everything needs to be removed.

And to make my point very clear (as there's been confusion about it in the past): By "rewording" the trope, I'm talking about cleaning up the wording (including how much wording is used). I am not saying we need to redefine the trope and I'm not talking about TRS. We're not changing what the trope is. We know what the trope is, we know what the official description of the four humours is. All I'm talking about is deleting the nonsense and leaving the trope's actual definition and the humours' actual description as the only thing left on the page. If we want to create an analysis page after we've cleaned up the trope page, we have real-life descriptions and information of how the four humours have been used in medicine and storytelling, very little of which currently appears on the trope page.

Now, if it happens that we get rid of what shouldn't be there and find that the trope underneath it has core, in-built problems, then we might need to discuss TRS. At the moment, however, I don't think the problem is the original trope. I think the problem is that people have used it for brainstorming for so many years without intervention that the trope has been completely overwhelmed with things that have nothing to do with either the real trope or real analysis of the trope.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 2nd 2023 at 1:08:47 PM

I believe this trope has been brought up as a TRS candidate before though. Can't remember why or who wanted to TRS it though.

Amonimous and Wyldchyld had mentioned on suggesting this to TRS.

Funnily enough, I actually have an unchecked wick check in my sandbox for this trope, though for completely different reasons (a shitload of ZCE's, temperaments not matching descriptions, etc). I knew the shoehorns have been an issue for a while but I didn't know they were this bad.

+ Square Peg Round Trope mentioned the degradation of temperaments/the over-tangibility of "four" being used to shoehorn. Inky 100 added it at the beginning of last year.

I mean, it's an ensemble trope. It almost certainly needs TRS because I bet you it's being badly misused in some way.

But yeah, trimming the description has nothing to do with TRS (which is why I personally kept suggesting we go back to the description drive thread, though nobody took it there after the cleanup thread discussion ended as I had been expecting)

So, do we bring this again to the Trope Description drive?

Edit. It's already in there. Gonna refer to this thread.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Sep 4th 2023 at 9:33:54 PM

Bump.

How about we just sandbox the current page and explore how much we're comfortable removing then decide if the remainder should go to TRS? That way it won't matter if we remove something that others think should remain because we can add it back in.

Sure. It shall be collab.

Sandbox page is HERE

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Sep 11th 2023 at 4:10:26 PM

"Reasoning on adding countries bordering on National Stereotypes and other pop culture elements on an otherwise pseudoscience and why or why not should we keep these."

I inspired by this website which sorts several characters, celebrities, and things into each personality types, including National Stereotypes and other elements too.

But if you find these elements too stereotypically shoehorned, I recommend change the said elements to the "tropes usually applying to the [each temperament]" instead. Otherwise, we should keep the other kinds of personality types because these are directly related to the four temperaments theory, also the elemental/mythical believes which are historically used as personality types too.

That website has the following disclaimer at the start of its "4 Temperaments" section (here):

"My own description of The 4 Temperaments system. Don't know if there actually is an official version, but this probably isn't it if there is one."

I don't think we should be using that website as a source.

Bumping this. The unfortunate forum situation earlier this month stalled this activity, and I feel like Drink-Based Characterization has been added on the temperaments, and I feel like this is turning unilateral, and the website source that Wyldchyld mentioned is very, very sketchy, with the Countries, School Cliques, and Music genres makes me feel like they're unnecessary shoehorns on an otherwise outdated scientific theory.